full vs crop

Discussion in 'Photography Beginners' Forum' started by clel miller, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. clel miller

    clel miller TPF Noob!

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    9
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    As digital cameras took over, why did so many of them drop the 35mm size.?
    Was/Is it expensive to make the sensor in the same footprint as your "typical" film camera.?
    Thanks


     
  2. chuasam

    chuasam Been spending a lot of time on here!

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    912
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos NOT OK to edit
    absolutely.
     
  3. TCampbell

    TCampbell Been spending a lot of time on here!

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2012
    Messages:
    3,601
    Likes Received:
    1,542
    Location:
    Dearborn, MI
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    The smaller sensor size was all about reducing costs and being able to produce affordable cameras.

    "Full frame" digital cameras were typically at least $2000 USD or more ... sometimes much more. It's somewhat recent that a few models have come along which cost less than $2000 (but still more than $1000... whereas there are lots of choices for APS-C size sensor camera bodies that are well under $1000.)
     
  4. clel miller

    clel miller TPF Noob!

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    9
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    I see.....Thank You
     
  5. Solarflare

    Solarflare No longer a newbie, moving up!

    Joined:
    May 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,801
    Likes Received:
    374
    Because in the beginning, around 2000, even APS-C was extremely expensive and full frame was impossibly expensive.

    Thats also why back then the FourThird sensors have been started, since back then they've been substantly cheaper to produce than APS-C.

    Nowadays an APS-C sensor costs much less than hundred dollars and a full frame sensor below half a thousand dollar, and we have the first medium format sensor thats produced in a single step (the Sony 44x33mm sensor) instead of getting assembled from multiple smaller sensor pieces. Thus APS-C is the standard and full frame sensors are going more and more mainstream.
     
  6. soufiej

    soufiej No longer a newbie, moving up!

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2015
    Messages:
    714
    Likes Received:
    113
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos NOT OK to edit
    While neither are perfect analogies to a camera sensor, consider the slow growth in; 1) television screens and, 2) digital audio/video devices. Back in "the day" the first color TV's were limited to about 17" diagonal in a set that sat in your living room and took up what would today be the space required for a small refrigerator. Sony made news in about 1976 when they introduced the first 27" CRT type TV - still a floor model. If I remember correctly, it was retailing at about $2600 in 1976 USD's. In 1996 a 40" CRT was the limit to the CRT technology and the move was being made to other types of televisions. A 40" Mitsubishi CRT television would have run you about $4000 in 1996 USD's.

    By the year 2000 DLP's and plasmas where hitting their stride and a large screen could be produced at up to 55" for either. Still the best of either technology was selling for about $4000-5500. Today a single box set can be produced at 70-80 inches without serious image degradation. If you have to ask how much, you can't afford it.



    If we shift to audio/video products, the CD was introduced in 1982 and it contained the audio only equivalent to one LP or approximately 45-60 minutes of program material. The first generation of CD players ran about $1200-2000 and a single CD sold for about $15-20. In the early 1990's LaserDisc introduced a digital playback system for video which required a 12" disc. Only the rare videophile owned a LaserDisc player. I still have mine, it cost about $2000 in the late '90's but it did decode AC3 audio content which was the early Dolby discrete five channel format. The content of a film was distributed over two or more sides of a LaserDisc.

    DVD was brought to the market in 1997 (average cost to the consumer was about $400 to $700) and this reduced the size of the disc to 5.25 inches and all content was on one side of the disc. Bluray moved the program to higher quality audio and video on a similarly sized disc in the early 2010's. Today you can buy a BluRay player for less than $100.

    The mathematics required to produce these items in digital format has existed for decades (search: Nyquist theory). The tools which make the technology available to the consumer have only recently been introduced to the market. Each successive increase in technological movement requires the industry to scrap the old technology. It also causes the consumer to re-buy all the material they have acquired in the old technology. This adds up to millions of dollars in cost for the manufacturing transformation and billions in sales.

    However, the move from the small sensor to the full frame sensor requires as much technological effort as the move from a 27" CRT to an 80" LED television. The market for the largest is always the smallest number of buyers. Cost cannot be spread out over the number of units sold as it can in the smaller sizes. This makes the financial move to the largest even more prohibitive than the technical movement.

    If everyone were buying the largest sensor, the cost would drop. It is though, a chicken and egg process. For everyone to buy the largest, the cost would first need to drop to the cost of the smallest. And, at that point, someone would already have introduced something even more exclusive to the market which would appeal to those who can afford the latest technological break through.

    You must think not only of the technology's difficulties by themself but of the implementation cost to the manufacturers.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. astroNikon

    astroNikon 'ya all Bananas I tell 'ya Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2013
    Messages:
    13,621
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Location:
    SE Michigan
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    I believe Nikon's first digital camera in 1999 the D1, 2.7mp APS-C (crop) image sensor camera was priced at a "reasonable" $4,995.00 USD

    and that was a crop camera, as they did not release a FullFrame until 2007 with the D3, 12 mp sensor for $4,995.00 USD

    Now you can get the d3300, 24.2 mp DX sensor for retail $500 or less with a lens.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
  8. clel miller

    clel miller TPF Noob!

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    9
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    I would imagine, at 500 bux, that would be a decent "first" camera for somebody just getting into Digital 35mm cameras.?
    Thanks
     
  9. astroNikon

    astroNikon 'ya all Bananas I tell 'ya Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2013
    Messages:
    13,621
    Likes Received:
    3,317
    Location:
    SE Michigan
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    First of all if you want a "35mm" digital camera then you need a Full Frame camera body.

    The d3x00 and d5x00 and d7x00 are smaller than the 35mm format. But when you look at either on a computer screen they are adjusted to the screen size. So really, no one sees a difference, per say.

    The d3300 is a great camera with great images. But it lacks alot of the higher end features of, say a d7200. BUT it all depends upon what you plan on doing. If you are just starting and have no high requirements then it is just fine. I've helped a few friends with d3x00 and just the stripped down focusing system drives me nuts but then I'm used to higher end systems.

    But a d3300 is a "decent" first digital camera for the money.
    a d5500 is a pretty good first digital camera for the money
    a d7200 is a very good first digital camera for the money
    etc ...

    but if you don't learn all the features and know how to use all the features of a d7200 then it could just be another $500 you could have saved if you got a d3300.

    It all depends upon your requirements and budget, because the cost of lens can really blow budgets.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. clel miller

    clel miller TPF Noob!

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2015
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    9
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    10-4
    Thank You
     
  11. beagle100

    beagle100 Been spending a lot of time on here!

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,971
    Likes Received:
    502
    Can others edit my Photos:
    Photos OK to edit
    yes, the Canon digital Rebels were "first" consumer DSLR's but now full frame 35mm is relatively cheap (less than $1,000 !)
     
  12. Solarflare

    Solarflare No longer a newbie, moving up!

    Joined:
    May 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,801
    Likes Received:
    374


    What are you talking about ?

    Under 1000$ is possible, but only if you buy used. A Canon 5D Mark II might do it, or a Nikon D700.
     

Share This Page