Giving and Receiving C&C

[The_Traveler]

And what is it with the proliferation of "hey what do you think of my random snapshot" threads?

Thoughtful critique seems moot when the effort was completely random.

Perhaps one could address the issue directly with a statement something like:"this seems like a random snapshot, what is it about this shot that you think deserves considered response? why is it a meaningful shot in your eyes? "

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

I think there should be a random snapshot gallery, and an active mod to move any thread that uses the word 'random' in the title or any post to it.

Then maybe also a 'I R trying to B serious photography' subforum.

Oh, also a subforum for those who lack shift keys...

 

[Foques]

Gaerek, you are my hero!
this is one of the reasons why i stopped posting here.. I am sick and tired of the "good shot" comments, when I know there are flaws in my shots.

thanks to those who tore my shots apart in the past and keep doing that, I can get better.. not any other way.

 

[13butlucky]

Thank you very much for this! I myself am very new, but have a photoblog. I mostly only have friends and family looking at it, and all they say is, Great job!, and nice work! I end up never knowing whether my shots are good, or not (probably the latter). Anyway, I would much rather have some useful criticism from a more experienced photographer than another star sticker from someone who thinks I take nice pictures.

 

[javafriek]

So by using that method, what does it usually mean when you only get one or no comment at all?

 

[SoonerBJJ]

they just look like snapshots. nothing special.

That is totally not helpful. If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't post it. This is just as bad as all the "I like it" comments people get

I disagree. Saying "looks like a snapshot" sums up a number of characteristics that would take many more words to articulate if we hashed it out each and every time. It saves the OP and the critic from beating a dead horse.

If I'm going for something beyond a snapshot and a critic, for whose C&C ability I respect, tells me "it's a snapshot" then I consider that meaningful C&C. There is much implied meaning in that simple phrase if it is given and interpreted with care.

I cut this from another thread because I thought it relevant here. YMMV.

 

[Derrel]

I think The_Traveler's post from yesterday summed things up quite well. But I want to add something that I see as a generational issue as it relates to giving and receiving of criticism,and that is that, from my mid-40's point of view, and that of my wife of the same age--that many young people today, especially those in their early to mid-20's, have a very,very difficult time in accepting criticism. The most carefully-worded and delicate criticism is often met with a mule-like, "But I wanted it that way!" or a ,"Dude, don't bag on my pics--I'm just a beginner!" or other similar protestation.

There's a fine line between accepting criticism with a gulp and a swallow of one's pride, and a defiant, non-accepting rejection of criticism. What I find so annoying is that I have spent much of my life, over 35 years now, studying photography, composition, design, and lighting, and have spent literally years of my life looking at photo books and millions of images on-line,and have read books about photography,photographers,and photo criticism,as well as the history of photography, and studied it at the junior high,high school, university, and community college levels...and yet when I or other similar long-timers says something to a young 20-something shooter, I have about a 50-50 chance of having my point of view openly rejected or dismissed. It has come to the point that somebody had to write "The Pact" to tell people how to accept criticism.

I try not to "bag on" weak shots, but there are many self-taught shooters here who commonly violate long-held design principles and traditions of art,design,and photography. The field of photography as a hobby has changed dramatically over the last 10 years, with more and more beginners rushing headlong into the field without having learned anything from anybody else in the field; today; it's buy a camera, skim the manual, and start shooting and posting photos.

Most of today's younger photography participants have never had an art professor or design professor who really cracked down hard on them, or challenged them to do better, or to work harder, or to really critically evaluate their work. Pre-internet, photography was judged and evaluated against the work of the MASTERS in the various sub-disciplines, so...when accepting C&C today, I think younger shooters need to at least try and honestly listen to what their evaluators are telling them, and SUCK IT UP and try and get better. And accept that they do not really have a long-term barometer against which their work is being evaluated. HOw is C&C to be given?

For beginning shooters, I think you need to ask yourselves: Do you want to be compared against other people with 12-24 months of experience, or do you want your work to be compared against what is *possible*?

 

[Overread]

For beginning shooters, I think you need to ask yourselves: Do you want to be compared against other people with 12-24 months of experience, or do you want your work to be compared against what is *possible*?

This is often why I encourage people to join more than one photographic forum - big catch all forums like here are great places to see the scope and depth of photography from all walks and interests - plus its often great to get input on a photo which comes from someone who does not have a dedicated background in your field/area of interest (eg macro shooters appreciate a macro image in a very different way to that of say a studio photographer)
However people also need to join smaller, dedicated communities that focus on their specific interest areas with photography. Such places often attract a larger number of highly skilled photographers within a disipline (eg macro shooters - studio - sports etc...) and that can really help things along when you "rub shoulders with the pros"

 

[Gaerek]

So by using that method, what does it usually mean when you only get one or no comment at all?

A lot of times, from what I've seen, it means that there's nothing really to comment on, good or bad. They might be technically correct, or close to technically correct, but there's nothing that stands out that's worth commenting on. Or, it's a subject that everyone here has seen 100 times. Pictures of pets come to mind, and things like that.

That is totally not helpful. If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't post it. This is just as bad as all the "I like it" comments people get

I disagree. Saying "looks like a snapshot" sums up a number of characteristics that would take many more words to articulate if we hashed it out each and every time. It saves the OP and the critic from beating a dead horse.

If I'm going for something beyond a snapshot and a critic, for whose C&C ability I respect, tells me "it's a snapshot" then I consider that meaningful C&C. There is much implied meaning in that simple phrase if it is given and interpreted with care.

I cut this from another thread because I thought it relevant here. YMMV.

I caught this in the thread that it was originally posted in, but decided against commenting. Since you re-posted here, I think it's worth giving a comment about. I have to agree with Twinky here. "It's a snapshot" is about as lazy C&C as "Great shot!" or "It sucks!" Snapshot means something different to each person, and it's very subjective. It doesn't describe anything that is specifically wrong, but more of a feeling that one gets from the photo. Everyone will interpret what it means differently, especially a new photographer who may not understand why a snapshot is a bad thing, and how to fix it. Sure, there are things that might be common of all or most snapshots, but there are no hard and fast rules.

If you've already spent the time to click reply, you might as well give something that the person will actually be able to use. Here's a challenge. Write out a list of problems that are common to all snapshots. Now, ask a beginner if they can list problems that are common to all snapshots. If those match, or are close, I'll concede that saying something is a snapshot is adequate C&C. If there isn't anything common between ALL snapshots, you're going to leave people (especially beginners) confused as to what they need to do to fix it.

Seriously, do you really think that "It's a snapshot" is just as relevant and useful as "You want to make sure you're down at the level of your subject, and be absolutely sure you've nailed focus on the eyes. Most importantly, try turning the pop-up flash off, and use the ambient light. You'll likely need to open your aperture wide, and turn your ISO up, but it'll be worth it for the better shot."

I think The_Traveler's post from yesterday summed things up quite well. But I want to add something that I see as a generational issue as it relates to giving and receiving of criticism,and that is that, from my mid-40's point of view, and that of my wife of the same age--that many young people today, especially those in their early to mid-20's, have a very,very difficult time in accepting criticism. The most carefully-worded and delicate criticism is often met with a mule-like, "But I wanted it that way!" or a ,"Dude, don't bag on my pics--I'm just a beginner!" or other similar protestation.

The generational gap idea is quite interesting, and I think that it's very plausible. What's interesting is, you'd probably think I was much older than I really am. In reality, I'm one of those mid-20's you mentioned. Fortunately, when I was learning photography about 10 years ago when I was 17, I had a professional photographer as a mentor. He was about as harsh as anyone I've ever seen here, but it was that harsh critique that helped me become a better photographer.

Kids these days (that makes me feel old!) want instant gratification, and they believe that if they think something is good, then everyone should feel the same way.

When I get C&C, I want is from people who are better than I am. People who have less skill than me have little to nothing to offer me. Unfortunately too many people love mediocrity and love it when the unskilled give them critique because they love seeing the "Wow, great shot!"

 

[bigtwinky]

Along with the "I like this shot", I think we should add the "this is a snapshot" comments

 

[SoonerBJJ]

Gaerek, your points are well taken. I would agree that a complete beginner would not necessarily know what defines a "snapshot" or why that might even be considered negative feedback. I won't take you up on your challenge because I'll concede that the results would be about what you would expect. But I believe if one were to spend a few weeks around the forum a general sense of "what is snapshot-ness" would begin to take shape.

Ideally one would try to offer more specific criticism or suggestions that might help the OP improve their next time around. But all comments should be considered within context of the OP and the critic. Depending on who is delivering, I might value "great shot" or "it sucks" as C&C. It isn't as helpful as "this is what you can do better next time" but SOMETIMES any feedback is better than none. But again this gets back at the relative experience of the photographer. The needs of the beginner are going to differ from those of the more experienced.

 

[The_Traveler]

It seems that the discussion is circling around an important but subsidiary issue – "what is the 'correct' form for c&c."

I suggest that instead the important topic should be "how can we improve the quality of the interactions on this forum?" There are enough people posting on this thread alone to make a difference. (And if a reader doesn't think the forum needs to be improved, he or she is absolutely welcome to go on doing whatever they did before.)

I suggest several steps, not in any specific order of importance.

1)encourage people to post other than in the beginners' forum. There are lots of reasons for this, not the least of which that they'll be exposed to better shooters, as it were, and like content in the specific forums. This will also return the beginners' forum to the home of real new fish.

2)When people give the short-hand 'I love it answers', ask them to enlarge on that. Make the point that understanding why one likes or dislikes a shot is as much of a learning experience as taking the picture. When people try to beg off by saying that they're a newby, refer them to a simple how-to on C&C.

(I know that someone here has written one but I can't find it easily. I also have written one under the title of Saying you like it is not enough.' Maybe put a link to a how-to in your signature.)

Make the point that C&C is not about technical issues but about why the viewer likes the picture and they've been looking at pictures for years.

3)Take the rules of the Forum seriously and give C&C to every picture you have the energy to undertake that is posted in the forums you frequent. Do this specifically, to provide an example to other posters.

4)Save your energy. Don't shoot the corpse. If someone has given a good C&C already, go on to another picture. This is not an effort to fully educate one poster or fully consider one picture but an effort to improve the Forum.

Lew

 

[Overread]

Whilst this thread is dealing with the attitude and conduct of members as a whole I think there might be some posting here who might find the following interesting:

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...raphy-mentors-kickstarting-project-again.html

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Good link Over.

 

[Gaerek]

First of all, allow me to apologize for bumping a thread on page 9. I wanted to share my feelings about this whole issue after a week or so of reflecting on it, and this is probably the best place to put it. I've been moving into a new place over the past week, and that has given me some time away from the forums and from photography in general. It's allowed me to put some things in perspective.

First of all, my feelings from my first post are still the same. I think that there are still people who ask for C&C but don't want any help. The difference is my attitude regarding these people. It used to make me mad, it used to upset me. Not anymore. I realized the only people that are getting hurt are the people who don't want to hear critical comments about their work. Basically, if you want to stay in your own little fantasy land where your photography work is the best in the world, then have at it. Reality is a *****, and some people can't handle it.

I thought about just not giving C&C anymore, but I realized that's not the answer. Instead, I'll give C&C when I can, and if someone is obviously a better photographer than me, and obviously knows what they're doing (sarcasm intended), I'll just refuse to give them help. Those that are appreciative, and actually want to learn, I will continue to help them. It's as simple as that.

I can't change people's attitude, all I can do is stop encouraging people to hurt their own photography, and that's what I will be doing from here on out.