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Help with high key metallic product shots

vigilante

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I am not a pro photographer by any stretch but I do what I can. I work for a company with an online store and I also have to take many product shots.
Our equipment is pretty cheap stuff:
Nikon D5100 with Nikkor 18-55 standard lens. About a $1000 setup.
I've got a white box for our photo booth and 3 standard lamps plus standard room lighting and a window that all light up the box. All the lights are white, no incandescent.

The shots I'm having the most trouble with are metallic objects like steel, iron, painted metals etc. Think like knives or firearms. Mostly these are manufactured steel products with various colored finishes.

I have played with every setting I can to try and get good high key photos so I can blow out the backgrounds etc.

Problems I keep having though:

- Colors never seem right. A dark grey or a black just look like silver, too light. I can put a grey and black product next to each other and they often don't look any different.
- Too grainy. I would like the metal on these objects to seem smooth but instead I have a kind of grainy, almost TOO detailed look, with high ISO-like artifacts and prominent "pores" from the metal.
- Odd blobs of color splotches. For example if an object is 7 inches long and I'm shooting it from the side, the middle 4 or 5 inches looks ok, but on the two outsides, there might be splotches of purple or green tints with grainy artifacts. I'm guessing the narrow range of the flash is lighting up the middles and leaving problems on the outsides.
- I try to compensate with more light by using flash but this exacerbates some of the discoloration issues and makes shadows and things more pronounced.
- Raising flash compensation and exposure compensation just end up washing out products, even making artifacts, pores, and tiny imperfections more visible.

I seem to be able to shoot other sorts of things just fine, like hats or boxes or other swag, but have a heck of a time with dark objects or metal!

As I mentioned, I'm using the light box because I want to blow out the backgrounds and cut my products out.

I have to hold the camera, so my shutter speed, I've found, needs to be at 80. I can try 60 but can get a little camera shake so I like to stay at 80-100 at least. ISO is a killer with artifacts on metal so I really don't want much more than 400 maybe 800 at most.
That leaves aperture. Well sometimes I want a little depth of field like maybe at 7 or 8, rarely down to 4.8 which is max. Sometimes I want zero DoF, because I'm trying to get fully sharp object image, but jumping to 14+ is just too dark again.

I'm at a loss, I really am trying to learn but I can't seem to find settings that work for high key shots on metal objects which may be dark in color. The D5100 has a "high key" effect which works ok but is stuck on 4.8 aperture which I rarely want anyway.

So what is my problem? Do I just need even more ambient light? A better flash setup? Do I need to take the shots from farther away to try and smooth out the metal pores?
Everything I do just makes it worse. If I use flash compensation brighter, that's no good. If I use exposure compensation and go up on that, also blows out the colors and richness of the objects. If I have higher aperture then my ISO has to go to 1000+ and the metal looks bad at that point. I can lower shutter speed but it's hard not to get a pinch of blur when I do that.

Any ideas are welcome. Some tutorials on shooting steel or metal products, high key, blowing out backgrounds, accurate colors, reducing artifacts and visible imperfections etc etc.

I've got an entire small catalog I will be shooting soon and I haven't found a method and settings that work for these painted metal objects!
 
Have you tried using fixed lights and finding some way to get a tripod in there. Maybe something small like a Gorilla Pod. You can then use longer exposures without having to bump up the ISO.
 
Have you tried using fixed lights and finding some way to get a tripod in there. Maybe something small like a Gorilla Pod. You can then use longer exposures without having to bump up the ISO.

I've thought about it. Only problem is that many of my shots are from like 1 inch above ground level. If not that, then I'm hovering directly over the top of the product and I don't have any kind of, uh, upside down tripod?
Of course, I could change the position of the product itself so that I can have the camera on a standard tripod mount on the floor, but I don't have any kind of "product holder" that will hold it at the angles I want, that I can easily Photoshop out later.

I do have a tripod which can sit about 5 inches above ground, I'll try that on some strait-on shots, but it won't be suitable for many other angles.

All my lights are fixed except for the camera's own flash. I just turn them all on, so no strobes or anything.

I guess I'm looking for the #1 thing to improve this, if I had to go order something now, would it be special tripods? More light? I don't know.
 
Do you have some examples of the images you can post? It's kind of hard to envisage what you are describing. Some sounds like colour fringing may be happening on the extremities and maybe some exposure issues or problems caused with reflections. Unfortunately even a circular polarizing filter won't take care of the unwanted reflections on the metal. It only works on glass, water and gloss paint (car bodywork) but not polished metal, if memory serves.
 
You definitely need to get a tripod. Get a good one, with reversible central column or one that pivots.

Next is lights. Using mixed lighting will be problem because of the different light colors. Just use one type of light so you can adjust the white balance later in post.

Next is the light angle or angles. Any shiny object will reflect, but it is your responsibility to know how to position the lights to minimize the reflections.

Here are some books that might help.

Light Science and Magic An Introduction to Photographic Lighting Fil Hunter Steven Biver Paul Fuqua 9780240812250 Amazon.com Books

Lighting for Product Photography The Digital Photographer s Step-By-Step Guide to Sculpting with Light Allison Earnest 9781608955442 Amazon.com Books
 
It sounds to me like you need :
A) A better understanding of light
B) A good tripod
C) A consistent way to meter and measure exposure

Light Science and Magic will give you a solid understanding of working with light.
Allison's books does a good job of covering the basics of studio still life photography.
With those two books (linked in Designers post) you'd be well on your way, but you'd also be spending a bit more money on set up. Let's just say that there's a good reason why you don't see professional product photographers shooting in a light tent. ;)
 
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I've got a white box for our photo booth and 3 standard lamps plus standard room lighting and a window that all light up the box. All the lights are white, no incandescent.
This sounds like a color consistency nightmare right here. Lamps, plus room lighting, plus window light, equals at least three different color temperatures. Good luck balancing that out and still having an accurate rendition of your product.

The shots I'm having the most trouble with are metallic objects like steel, iron, painted metals etc. Think like knives or firearms. Mostly these are manufactured steel products with various colored finishes.
Once you know how to shoot this stuff it's pretty easy, but you need more kit than what you've got at the moment to do it right.



Problems I keep having though:

- Colors never seem right. A dark grey or a black just look like silver, too light. I can put a grey and black product next to each other and they often don't look any different.
- Too grainy. I would like the metal on these objects to seem smooth but instead I have a kind of grainy, almost TOO detailed look, with high ISO-like artifacts and prominent "pores" from the metal.
- Odd blobs of color splotches. For example if an object is 7 inches long and I'm shooting it from the side, the middle 4 or 5 inches looks ok, but on the two outsides, there might be splotches of purple or green tints with grainy artifacts. I'm guessing the narrow range of the flash is lighting up the middles and leaving problems on the outsides.
- I try to compensate with more light by using flash but this exacerbates some of the discoloration issues and makes shadows and things more pronounced.
- Raising flash compensation and exposure compensation just end up washing out products, even making artifacts, pores, and tiny imperfections more visible.
This is where understanding both light, and your cameras metering system, will benefit you. It sounds on the one hand like your fighting the cameras metering system while also fighting poor lighting quality. You don't know why these things are happening, so you end up "chasing your tail" so to speak.

Understanding Camera Metering and Exposure

As I mentioned, I'm using the light box because I want to blow out the backgrounds and cut my products out.
You don't need a lightbox to "blow out" the background. As a matter of fact, getting a solid 255/255/255 background without blowing out the subject is quite difficult to do with a lightbox.

I have to hold the camera, so my shutter speed, I've found, needs to be at 80. I can try 60 but can get a little camera shake so I like to stay at 80-100 at least. ISO is a killer with artifacts on metal so I really don't want much more than 400 maybe 800 at most.
That leaves aperture. Well sometimes I want a little depth of field like maybe at 7 or 8, rarely down to 4.8 which is max. Sometimes I want zero DoF, because I'm trying to get fully sharp object image, but jumping to 14+ is just too dark again.

You really need a good tripod and head.
Amazon.com Manfrotto 410 Junior Geared Head - Replaces 3275 Tripod Heads Camera Photo

Amazon.com Induro AT-214 Alloy AT Series 8M Tripod Black Camera Photo

I'm at a loss, I really am trying to learn but I can't seem to find settings that work for high key shots on metal objects which may be dark in color. The D5100 has a "high key" effect which works ok but is stuck on 4.8 aperture which I rarely want anyway.
Your issue here is that you sound as if you're blindly searching for some magic setting. That's not how product photography works. Normally you would know what setting you want to shoot at first and then set up your lights to give the desired exposure at the required setting. This is where having a way to meter the light comes in handy. If you don't have a light meter getting a grey card is the next best step.
........................................................

Any ideas are welcome. Some tutorials on shooting steel or metal products, high key, blowing out backgrounds, accurate colors, reducing artifacts and visible imperfections etc etc.

I've got an entire small catalog I will be shooting soon and I haven't found a method and settings that work for these painted metal objects!

Books. It's time to pick up some books.
Digital Still Life Photography : Steve Sint Is another good book that covers gear, as well as setting up a shooting table, for basic product style still life work. Couple that with the other two books already mentioned and you'll have all the knowledge you need for this endeavor.

Of course, you'll also want to pick up a ColorChecker Passport to ensure color and exposure accuracy. Possibly a light meter as well.
 
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Lots of good replies, thanks a bunch!

I'm curious about two comments though.

Let's just say that there's a good reason why you don't see professional product photographers shooting in a light tent.

I've watched lots of tutorials on product photography and most of them have been in tents of one kind or another. What do you mean by this? I thought the purpose of the tent was to diffuse and kind of neutralize all the light in a consistent way. How else would you shoot? I imagine if you don't use a box, you'll need a ton of already-diffused lighting all around the subject right? Without a box I run in to light reflection issues.

You don't need a lightbox to "blow out" the background. As a matter of fact, getting a solid 255/255/255 background without blowing out the subject is quite difficult to do with a lightbox.

I know all too well that trying to blow out the background during shooting is almost impossible, I do a lot of post processing. Having the white light box let's me have a consistent surrounding color which is easier to cut out later. Why is using a light box harder for cutting backgrounds? What else would you use?
Since I'm shooting many dark objects, and don't want color halos around the edges of stuff, using white seems like my only option. I couldn't use black for example, or red or what have so. Curious why you say this.

Anyway, I'll look into all this stuff. We can't invest 5 grand in an updated studio right now, but you know, if I can narrow down the best bang for the buck and buy one or two upgrades, that could be possible.
We have many tripods, but they are strait "standard" tripods, I'm not able to position things using them when I need to shoot from many angles through the box.
 
....................................................
I've watched lots of tutorials on product photography and most of them have been in tents of one kind or another. What do you mean by this? I thought the purpose of the tent was to diffuse and kind of neutralize all the light in a consistent way. How else would you shoot? I imagine if you don't use a box, you'll need a ton of already-diffused lighting all around the subject right? Without a box I run in to light reflection issues.
Chances are you're watching tutorials by the companies that make or sell the light tents, or by people looking to sell stuff on e-bay. ;)
The problem with a light box is specifically that you can't control the light. Not only do you have no control over the light, you have very little control of camera angle, and you still have to deal with the reflections of the seams and wrinkles of the light box. Beyond that, the light tent isn't going to "neutralize" color temp differences in your lights. Not in the least.


I know all too well that trying to blow out the background during shooting is almost impossible, I do a lot of post processing. Having the white light box let's me have a consistent surrounding color which is easier to cut out later. Why is using a light box harder for cutting backgrounds? What else would you use?
Since I'm shooting many dark objects, and don't want color halos around the edges of stuff, using white seems like my only option. I couldn't use black for example, or red or what have so. Curious why you say this.
Blowing out the background isn't impossible at all. Not even "nearly". You just need to know how to do it, and a light tent isn't the way.
Anyway, I'll look into all this stuff. We can't invest 5 grand in an updated studio right now, but you know, if I can narrow down the best bang for the buck and buy one or two upgrades, that could be possible.
It won't cost you nearly that much, so long as you're fairly handy. You can build a shooting table for just over $250. You should be able to find a sheet of 4x8 white acrylic from a sign shop for about $150, then you can build a pair of saw horses to hold them. Another pair of 2x4 studs for uprights in the back and a pair of closet dowels to tension the acrylic at the top and bottom. 4-6 small bar clamps to hold it all together and now you've got a white sweep that can be lit from behind or underneath as well as just lighting it normally. You can use rip stop nylon to make diffusion panels or you can get rolls of vellum (tracing paper) for about $12 from the craft store. 20x30 foamcore is only a few dollars a sheet and can be purchased in white for bounce cards and black for flags. Like I said earlier, pick up Steve Sints book and he goes over low cost studio options. You can also check out the tutorials at Set Shop.
We have many tripods, but they are strait "standard" tripods, I'm not able to position things using them when I need to shoot from many angles through the box.
The problem isn't the tripod, it's the light tent. Get rid of the light tent and suddenly you're not so restricted anymore.



A shooting table will give you tons of space to set up and work appropriately:

Shimano SH-M162 by tltichy, on Flickr


And you don't need a whole lot of expensive kit to get the job done, so long as you know how to work with light:

Ruger: MK II by tltichy, on Flickr

For small shiny stuff, you can even do it in your living room:

Tiffany by tltichy, on Flickr

It really all comes down to understanding light. Understanding angles of reflection, qualities of light, metering, etc. That's why the most recommended items in this thread are books.
 
Nice!

That is inspiring. I think what I'm missing is better lit subject, proper background lighting, and composing with tripod.

Here is a throw-away before and after shot. It's just the raw original image and then another which is like 2 minutes of Photoshop.

zrdet521m76kt6p6g.jpg


81b555diuyiy2db6g.jpg


For reference, the shot is 1/60, f/4.8, ISO800, 32mm. No flash, manual exposure, no tripod.
 
If you look at my very last set up, you can see a quick and easy way to shoot something like that. The white background is a $2 sheet of 20x30 foamcore from the craft store. You can use some vellum to diffuse your main light and use a second light low to bring out texture (or use a mirror to bounce some hard light across the subjects. If you need fill on one side or another just cut another piece of foamcore and make a bounce card. If you're getting light wrap where you don't want it just use a bit of black foamcore to flag it.

I'd also recommend that you move to a longer focal length. At 32mm you're getting visible perspective distortion. For small products like those slides I'd go with about 100mm. This gets you far enough away that you remove perspective distortion, while also minimizing the family of reflecting angles in the product.
 
Chances are you're watching tutorials by the companies that make or sell the light tents, or by people looking to sell stuff on e-bay. ;)
The problem with a light box is specifically that you can't control the light. Not only do you have no control over the light, you have very little control of camera angle, and you still have to deal with the reflections of the seams and wrinkles of the light box. Beyond that, the light tent isn't going to "neutralize" color temp differences in your lights. Not in the least.
That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? You can certainly control lighting, camera position, seams and wrinkles using a light tent. They are sold for a reason. A proper light tent is neutral in color, but the cheap knock-offs could possibly cast a color tint.

With larger items, light tents may not be the solution, but your examples are perfectly fine for a medium sized tent.
 
I can't even tell there is perspective distortion! Where is that most visible? Isn't that more about distance between camera and object than about focal length itself?

I will attempt your setup with current lighting but I doubt our cheap lamps have the output necessary. I think we'll have to invest at least into a good lamp and an off-camera flash.
 
Chances are you're watching tutorials by the companies that make or sell the light tents, or by people looking to sell stuff on e-bay. ;)
The problem with a light box is specifically that you can't control the light. Not only do you have no control over the light, you have very little control of camera angle, and you still have to deal with the reflections of the seams and wrinkles of the light box. Beyond that, the light tent isn't going to "neutralize" color temp differences in your lights. Not in the least.
That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? You can certainly control lighting, camera position, seams and wrinkles using a light tent. They are sold for a reason. A proper light tent is neutral in color, but the cheap knock-offs could possibly cast a color tint.

With larger items, light tents may not be the solution, but your examples are perfectly fine for a medium sized tent.
First, the sides of the light tent become the source, not the bulb. Moving the bulb simply adjust the light intensity. As far as color, I'm not talking about color contamination from the box itself, I'm talking about color from the light sources themselves. The OP is talking about having 3 distinctly different light sources effecting his shots. Each with it's own color temperature. Assuming a neutral box, the colors of the light sources won't be mitigated by the diffusion fabric.

None of the example images I posted would be as easy to do in a light tent. Not one. The shoes are being strafed with hard light from the front and back to bring out texture, the very nature of a light box precludes the use of hard light. Same with the pistol. Not only do I have a strip of black cinefoil on the front reflector to break up the white, but I have a mirror off to the side to bring out texture in the grip and add a highlight down the back of the gun. I can also tune the angle of my diffusion materials and reflectors to tune the reflections and the way light falls off on the subject. With a light box your dealing with fixed angles and positions of each side. You can move the product around inside, but that adds more limitations to camera placement. Even the Tiffany serving set sees hard light to both create a definite shadow and pull out the texture of the box. The very fact that the knife and server aren't surrounded by white is what allows you to so easily see the shapes embossed onto the handles. The room, which is a good 6 stops lower, reflects back as black, which helps to add contour to the polished metal. If it was reflecting white all around it would be much harder to see the designs in the handles.


Light tents are sold for a reason. It's a simple, DIY solution for people at home who want clean photos of things to sell on e-bay, craigslist, etc. Do they have their place in professional photography? Sure. If some company came to me with say, 600 different plastic connectors, and they wanted images of all of them, delivered in two days; right there would be a time when a light box might come in handy. Even then however a simple white sweep would work better. Every time I see a light tent for sale, it's usually accompanied by a "how to" video showing someone using simple, constant lights and a point and shoot camera. Why? Because that is their target market.
 

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