Interesting Failure... for the week.

Photographiend · May 30, 2013

This was my attempt to be able to view the effects of gravity on a small scale.

I was aware of the other factors playing a roll in this experiment: the initial ripples created when objects would touch the water, the way the objects resting in the water would create little wells in the surface and underlying subtle currents.

But as my physicist friend, my Dad and now my husband (also a scientist) have all informed me, what I am observing here has to do with the surface tension of the water.

I am not convinced but I will accept it.

And while it is a failure, it is still interesting.

I should include the details. This is the fast forwarded version cutting and hour and a half of video down to just over 2 min.

1. The first mini clip is of what got my mind started on this whole tangent. Cereal.

I was eating cereal and I noticed that with each scoop I removed from the bowl the remaining would scatter then slowly cluster back together. I figured this had to be at least in part due to the gravity of the Cheerios pulling on one another. But there was the factor of absorption that I couldn't dismiss.

2. This is when I decided to look for another medium that would float but not have an absorption factor. Plastic beads.

3. This worked pretty well but in prior attempts I had issues with some of the beads sinking which is why I decided to try Perler beads. The peculiar way these beads would change orientation entirely to line up end to end was just so curious I had to include it in here. My best guess, 2 things are contributing to this.

First, they are drawn towards each other at the path of least resistance; second the hole in the center gets water flowing through it which creates a suction as pieces become closer.

4. This is when I decided to experiment with a denser center to see if it would make the pieces move faster. So I placed a cluster of hematite rocks in the center... only problem was the hematite was magnetized and what we end up observing here is the magnetic field. First is with the poles pointed up and down.

5. Now with the plastic beads and the poles pointing side to side.

6. Now with the Perler beads and the poles pointing side to side.

7. This time I sprinkled glitter in the bowl thinking it would allow me to observe any subtle currents in the water... well not so much but quite interesting how the results differ from not having glitter in the water. Stopped filming after 11 min when I ran out of memory.

After this last recording I think maybe I shouldn't be so quick to write off theories of dark matter...

o hey tyler · May 30, 2013

Photographiend said:
I really hope this vid link works here. I am attempting to post from FB.

Any how, this was my attempt to be able to view the effects of gravity on a small scale.

I was aware of the other factors playing a roll in this experiment: the initial ripples created when objects would touch the water, the way the objects resting in the water would create little wells in the surface and underlying subtle currents.

But as my physicist friend, my Dad and now my husband (also a scientist) have all informed me, what I am observing here has to do with the surface tension of the water. I am not convinced but I will accept it.

And while it is a failure, it is still interesting.

[video=facebook;10151411090667373]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151411090667373[/video]

Video is probably private on your profile. So, it won't work.

Photographiend · May 30, 2013

I tweaked it a few different ways until I could get a link to work. Should work now.

o hey tyler · May 30, 2013

Negative, ghost rider. Have you tried the good ol' tube of yous?

Photographiend · May 30, 2013

Haha... I can attempt that. Hold on.

Photographiend · May 30, 2013

Okies, done

Thanks for bearing with me on this.

Compaq · May 30, 2013

Plastic is hydrophobic. Are you sure the effects of gravity is not confounded by hydrophobic interactions? Hydrophobic interactions are driven by thermodynamic parameters, such as positive enthalpy changes, and, maybe more so, positive entropy changes.

This is in principle the same as putting oil in water. You can use a pipette and put the oil in small drops in random places in the water, but in time the oil droplets would come together.

The video was cool, though!

Photographiend · May 30, 2013

Thanks. I am not sure what all is effecting the results I am getting. Which is part of why I consider this a failed experiment. What you are mentioning is something my husband had mentioned as well. My husband had also mentioned I should be doing this with Distilled water to eliminate the effect of particle charge. Which I may or may not do right away.

I am planning to do more experiments with magnets of varying strength. I have done waaaaay more playing then filming and found some interesting stuff.

If I am going to play more with the theory that gravity plays a roll I am going to have to get more creative. Figuring a way to keep a sphere of denser material suspended at the surface to see if a change in density effects the results. In the second clip it took over 11 minutes for the beads to move from the outer edge to the center of the pie pan. I think the spherical shape lends itself to the success of free motion in the liquid minimizing variations in resistance from one side to another. Possibly also a more balanced gravitational force. I dunno we shall see.

As far as testing the theory of hydrophobic interaction I would have to use a different material. That is simple enough to change but finding one that will stay at the top of the water? That is the tricky part. Got wooden spheres, I have sprayed a batch of them with a sealer to eliminate absorption. Although as your have pointed out the material of the sealant may alter the interaction... so I may have to do it without the sealant.

Crazy how by trying to answer 1 question I develop 1000 new ones... Fun though.

runnah · May 30, 2013

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

snowbear · May 30, 2013

runnah said:
What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

African or European swallow?

OP: Try putting a few drops of liquid detergent (or, if you have a darkroom, some Photo-flo solution) in the water, first.

Photographiend · May 30, 2013

I can try the soap thing but my guess is it will make them sink.

Compaq · May 31, 2013

Is it possible to observe the gravitational forces acting from such small objects on other small objects?

As you say, currents will interfere. Other physio-chemical effects are present, such as the resistance being smaller when non-polar compounds are close together (non-polar surface against the polar water minimized). The gravitational forces need to overcome the friction between the water and the objects.

If I remember correctly, the non-polar interactions are greater at higher temperatures, so you could try to control the temperature at water's freezing point. However, water is denser at that temp than room temp, which may increase the friction.

And consider the following: If smaller objects at close distances, such as those you used, would show gravitational effects, surely larger objects, such as humans, would show larger effects?

Newton's formula for gravitational forces (in space) only depend on the two objects' masses, the square of the radius between their centers, and the gravitational constant. Larger objects at the same distance show larger attractions. I have never felt someone else's gravitation acting on me.

Photographiend · May 31, 2013

Haha... I love your brain if you don't mind me saying. Indeed. When you toss a bunch of children into a swimming pool they don't clump together.

At any rate.

When I am observing these things it is to try to further my understanding of the forces at work in the cosmos. I tried to explain the forces I was observing as gravity and while that was wrong and I accept that I am taking in to account the forces that did play a roll and adapting my understanding to the way the vast cosmos work.

Your input has been priceless. Absolutely priceless. Because after your suggestion of plastic being hydrophobic my brain got to analyzing things in a different way.

WARNING SCIENCE RANT AHEAD:

So, I have been convinced for quite some time that Space isn't a void but rather a substance. That it has a density of it's own that has not been accounted for. That its density increase as it is acted upon by gravitational forces of planets, stars, black holes and what not.

If space were a substance, a substance we have not been able to observe up close as it would not be present on a heavenly body, then how is it that it would not be present? For some time I have thought maybe it was just too light weight, which could still be. But what if there was something else at work here? What if all matter as we know it is the equivalent of hydrophobic to the substance of space?

To simplify this I am going to refer to the substance of space as The Gossamer. Now in my experiments with the water and the beads it actually took more than one substance to make the experiment resemble a planetary system. First water, then glitter. Obviously I don't believe our vast cosmos is comprised of water and glitter but rather the substances that make it up have physical properties that allow it to behave like the materials used in my experiment.

In other terms, all matter as we know it being Gossamerphobic. And the gossamer of space would be comprised of no less than 2 substances (and possibly more). One, being the liquid like substance that permits motion of objects in space and which increases in density as it is acted upon by gravitational forces not unlike water pressure (thinking like the depths of the ocean) and the other being something they have already theorized, dark matter I am think not only adds mass but also acts as a stabilizer.

In my experiment when the glitter was added to the water it instantly began to form a webbing. It would clump and cluster here and there but it would form these strands connecting one to the next. Then when a denser object was added on top of this webbing it sort of stabilized that object. If two objects became close enough they would still join, forcing the glitter out from between them to do so. But what was most interesting, and this I actually didn't video tape, was when I would put a magnet into the water the glitter would repel it. It would sit in a ring just outside what I imagine was the magnetic field.

The interesting thing here is that scientist tell us that dark matter is the theoretical substance that keeps our galaxy from flying apart. When it seems to me it may also be the substance that keeps everything from clumping together into one gigantic mass. And maybe it is a bit of both. Maybe it is just the stabilizer. And a necessary factor in a successful galaxy.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts for the time being.

I am always afraid when I take the time so spell out my theories my lack of scientific understanding will be grossly obvious as I am not a scholar, just a housewife. So, please forgive my ignorance.

spacefuzz · May 31, 2013

Photographiend said:
WARNING SCIENCE RANT AHEAD:

So, I have been convinced for quite some time that Space isn't a void but rather a substance. That it has a density of it's own that has not been accounted for. That its density increase as it is acted upon by gravitational forces of planets, stars, black holes and what not.

If space were a substance, a substance we have not been able to observe up close as it would not be present on a heavenly body, then how is it that it would not be present? For some time I have thought maybe it was just too light weight, which could still be. But what if there was something else at work here? What if all matter as we know it is the equivalent of hydrophobic to the substance of space?

To simplify this I am going to refer to the substance of space as The Gossamer. Now in my experiments with the water and the beads it actually took more than one substance to make the experiment resemble a planetary system. First water, then glitter. Obviously I don't believe our vast cosmos is comprised of water and glitter but rather the substances that make it up have physical properties that allow it to behave like the materials used in my experiment.

In other terms, all matter as we know it being Gossamerphobic. And the gossamer of space would be comprised of no less than 2 substances (and possibly more). One, being the liquid like substance that permits motion of objects in space and which increases in density as it is acted upon by gravitational forces not unlike water pressure (thinking like the depths of the ocean) and the other being something they have already theorized, dark matter I am think not only adds mass but also acts as a stabilizer.

In my experiment when the glitter was added to the water it instantly began to form a webbing. It would clump and cluster here and there but it would form these strands connecting one to the next. Then when a denser object was added on top of this webbing it sort of stabilized that object. If two objects became close enough they would still join, forcing the glitter out from between them to do so. But what was most interesting, and this I actually didn't video tape, was when I would put a magnet into the water the glitter would repel it. It would sit in a ring just outside what I imagine was the magnetic field.

The interesting thing here is that scientist tell us that dark matter is the theoretical substance that keeps our galaxy from flying apart. When it seems to me it may also be the substance that keeps everything from clumping together into one gigantic mass. And maybe it is a bit of both. Maybe it is just the stabilizer. And a necessary factor in a successful galaxy.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts for the time being.

I am always afraid when I take the time so spell out my theories my lack of scientific understanding will be grossly obvious as I am not a scholar, just a housewife. So, please forgive my ignorance.

Your talking about the Ether, it was a physics theory for the way gravity propogates in the early 1900's. It was proven incorrect through experiments in the 20's or 30's I believe.

For the original experiment, sadly its not gravity but either surface tension or potentially slight static charge on plastic beads, or likely convection in the fluid container driving the balls close which then stick together via static charge. Cool video though, play it in reverse!

"I am always afraid when I take the time so spell out my theories my lack of scientific understanding will be grossly obvious as I am not a scholar, just a housewife. So, please forgive my ignorance."
NEVER be ashamed to dream, speculate, and ask questions. We are all ignorant in our own unique ways, and I dont know about you but I learn more from asking questions than being timid. Once 13 yr old me e-mailed Stephen Hawking about some innane black hole question. My lack of knowledge was quite...embarrasing but hey at least I learned something