ISO questions toward a new camera

[Sean1965]

I will be looking for a new camera pretty soon and the thought of a full body is not even something I think I ever want because the investment is just to great and I think I will see camera technology continue to advance to a point where the full frame is not really much of a difference.

There are a multitude of things I want to get clarification on but I thought IU should tackle each item with its own thread to understand a piece of it at a time. This being the ISO levels

Currently I have a Cannon XTI and I have begun building my lense collection while suffering with the lower end camera. I want to stay with Canon for the obvious reasons of holding on to my lenses.
MY XTI camera when shooting at 400 ISO begins to get grainy and I have read in many threads that different bodies have higher ISO's that shoot without much image quality loss This I think should be one of the more important features when I am buying my next camera I am really interested to know which models I can shoot in high ISO modes without killing quality and taking on a grainy look.

Also I would like to find a camera that has ISO settings that are lower than 100 if possible.

Last question is when I read the ISO settings it often says expandable to a much higher number exactly what the heck is that??

Very open to suggestions on camera's I was reading another thread and the person mentioned a 7D and a 60D when I look at these camera I don't see much of a difference in these two bodies. I would like to find a body around a thousand I am open to going higher just want to understand what I am getting for the money.

 

[KenC]

The T2i, T3i, T3, 60D and 7D all to my knowledge have the same sensor, which should give you about two stops improvement in noise. The 60D and 7D have additional advantages, which you can discover by searching on this forum and elsewhere. I used an XTi until about a year ago, and for me the noise was not objectionable at 400, which is where I often used it, but the T2i I have now is almost two stops better, i.e., at 1600 the noise is only just noticeably worse than at 400 on the XTi. If I need to use 1600 I don't hesitate - it just means using a tiny bit more noise reduction, and the results at 800 are far better than the XTi at 400, etc. If you shoot in poor light in places where it is difficult to use a tripod, like I do, then this is a really meaningful advantage over the XTi.

"Expandable" means you can make the camera use a higher ISO, but it is considered a non-standard setting because the quality is poor.

 

[480sparky43 42]

..........Last question is when I read the ISO settings it often says expandable to a much higher number exactly what the heck is that?? ..........

Current ISO standards for digital cameras top out at ISO 10,000, so no standards exist for cameras claiming higher ISOs. They may state it's 'equiviant to' a higher number, but technically it's not. That's why Nikon, for instance, uses "Hi" numbers..... Hi 1.0 and Hi 2.0, for instance, for what they consider 12,800 and 25,600 ISO.

 

[Cfitz]

All Canon DSLRs up to the 7D have the same processor, to my knowledge. The 7D has dual DIGIC 4 processor though, which the others don't and that would definitely help improve noise performance.

 

[Big Mike]

I will be looking for a new camera pretty soon and the thought of a full body is not even something I think I ever want because the investment is just to great and I think I will see camera technology continue to advance to a point where the full frame is not really much of a difference.

Your first sentence seems to be at odds with the rest of the post.

One of the biggest advantages of a full frame sensor, is lower noise levels at higher ISO settings. The 5D mark II, produces acceptable noise levels at ISO 3200 and 6400.

Also, when talking about noise, you should consider that technique plays a part. For example, if you nail your exposure or slightly overexpose, you will get much less noise than if you under expose and have to 'fix it in post'. ETTR

 

[MLeeK]

You'll find that any upgrade to a newer camera will produce a WHOLE LOT better results at ISO's above 400-800 than you are getting with your XTi.
I used my 50D at 12800 with beautiful results all of the time. I use my 7D at 12800 almost on a daily basis.
There are SO many improvements in ISO capability since the XTi you will be amazed.

I am also a HUGE HUGE HUGE fan of ETTR that mike posted. You can absolutely use your camera at ISO 1600 (it's max) and get awesome results using that technique.

 

[Sean1965]

What is ETTR?

And so Far the 7D is out in front with the Dual Processor without breaking the bank?

 

[KmH]

Expose To The Right in the histogram. Expose for the highlights, and let the shadows take care of themselves.

If one investigates the way digital image work it is discovered that the brightest stop of light in an image contains 1/2 the image luminance data. The next brightest stop of light contains 1/2 of the luminance data left by the brightest stop of light.

It doesn't take long before there is little luminance data left for the darker parts of an image, and the signal to noise ratio (SNR) gets very low..

Pixel size has a lot to do with image noise performance, as Mike mentioned. Full frame image sensors have bigger pixels. Bigger pixels gather more signal and have the best SNR which results in less image noise.

Canon's web site shows different image sensors in the T3, and T2i. The image sensor in the T3i is not shown, but the image sensor in the 60D is, and it is different thant the T2i and T3 image sensors.

It looks like the 60D and 7D image sensors are the same, and from DxOMark - Compare cameras side by side I would venture the T3i/60D/7D use the same image sensor.

 

[scorpion_tyr]

Just wait and be patient before you upgrade. Keep getting lenses and wait. The great megapixel war is over and Camera manufacturers are now investing much more time in improving image quality at higher ISOs. Your Rebel XTi is a lower end camera, but it's on the end of a line that does not have any "bad" cameras. The XTi is a great camera. Faster lenses and/or Speedlites will help compensate for your ISO issues.

 

[MLeeK]

What is ETTR?

And so Far the 7D is out in front with the Dual Processor without breaking the bank?

Click on the link in Mike's post. It's my favorite page on ETTR.




OP-you didn't say really what you are shooting and why your needs for high ISO are so important in a new camera. That kind of matters a bit when choosing between the 60D and the 7D. And of course, budget matters a lot.
The only real reason I use HIGH ISO's is because I shoot sports in poorly lighted gyms and on dark football fields. If I were shooting portraits only? I'd never use a high ISO. Weddings obviously need the high ISO handling capability if that's a direction you are inching towards. And then only when you have to. Flash is always there otherwise.

If you are considering holding and waiting for the upgrade for a little bit a good, dedicated flash unit will open a whole new world of options for you. You can get beautiful quality out of your camera if you work within it's means. That may give you the option to upgrade lenses more or save more... Just an option.

 

[Sean1965]

I have a dedicated off camera flash I am learning its a Nissin Flash I like it a lot but there's a good learning curve here. and that was going to be another thread when looking into my upgrade I don't want to rush I did kind of rush into my XTI but this time around I am really trying to learn what I can before making a move I appreciate all of your input from each of you it is greatly appreciated. So I guess the only question left here is whats my best option in a Canon APC sensor? Delivering the best in higher speed ISO's, And are the ISO's that are under 100 speed only on a full frame camera?

 

[Cfitz]

And are the ISO's that are under 100 speed only on a full frame camera?

Even then I think ISOs under 100 are expanded ISOs, not within the actual range of the sensor. If you really want/need low ISOs...shoot film.

 

[MLeeK]

Well, you're in the canon line so in the crop sensors the 7D is the top of the line currently. The 60D is nothing to sneeze at though.
Why do you want under 100 ISO?
You are always best shooting at the native ISO for your camera if you can. On Canon that is 100 and Nikon it's 200.

 

[KmH]

Not all Nikon's have a base ISO of 200.

The D3000, D3100, D7000, and D3x have ISO 100 as their lowest base ISO value..

 

[Sean1965]

Honestly I wasn't sure I had read a post about what to look for in buying a new camera and ISO was pretty much top of the list the fact that some cameras went below 100 I never even knew that I was surprised and thought for sure lower was better. I am also unaware of the native setting of canon at 100 and nikon at 200 I never heard of that.