Legal Issues Photographing White Water Rafters?

[x4photo]

Actually the issues I think I will have is "legal" permits at state parks. It seems to be a grey area based on how big a production you are, or how low key you are, and I want to acknowledge, I believe it was Tony, for bringing that up, and thanks for sticking on topic, I think that could be the major stumbling block for what I have in mind (remember engineer, tend to over engineer everything even Cracker Jacks) I may have to approach the rafting company. Right now they take one rafting guide out of rotation for the day to take pictures. They are not photographers, but they do a pretty good job taking pictures, they are handicapped however, they are using a Canon (just a joke again, please no hate mail, Ok I confess, I did have a Canon taking the product photography shots in my studio, because I liked the Canon tether software better, and the Canon worked with my digital 360 turntable at the time and Nikon didn't, but when they got the codecs in to run the table with a Nikon, I switched it out for the D90 because of my lens collection. I do miss the Canon tether software though and it was a good camera, am I redeemed?) They could possibly take the pictures from a better vantage point, (requires a hike) but I think its a logistics thing for them and convenience of where they are taking the photos from. Another problem with their system. You have to wait for someone to bring in the flash card, wait for the person to load them into the computer, wait for them to show the series for each raft, wait for her to burn each disk individually for each customer, and that is your only chance to buy them, they have no online system for buying photos, prints, mounted, nothing.

Nice thing about the trip to WV and the kayakers, is they were all individuals and they all wanted their run through the rapids caught on film, and there was a little cove after the rapids they could pull over and run up and get my card (that was a quick note to myself from experience, make sure your cards are waterproof) that was an ideal situation, if I could find the same volume of people on a river out west here, they will certainly "ham" it up for that "strange person" with the "strange camera", as they did in WV. Well in WV I was just the "strange person" with the "non standout" Nikon D100 sorry couldn't resist

 

[x4photo]

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/articles-interest/162431-photography-law.html

I don't want to seem "irresponsible" again, for posting "legal generalizations" again (my favorite word in these posts), but this link ^above^ was posted on this forum by its moderator, who has has also stated that you ultimately have to check with a lawyer (agreed and I know), but being that his profession is a photographer, he himself has had to make himself very aware of the legal aspects of his profession.

And his post in this forum is very informative, meaning, I will be much more "informed" (i love quotations too) when I do go speak to a lawyer.

Link http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/articles-interest/162431-photography-law.html

 

[12sndsgood]

It's the internet , you seem to know everything you need to know go talk to a local layer (like that ) to find your answers.

 

[unpopular]

I would not trust a lawyer who posts generic information online, no, especially without very specific blue-book style citation. This says to me that the attorney does not appreciate or respect nuances in the law. A generic disclaimer does not really settle this for me, either.

---

As for the strange people thing, whatever. But people are weird about by cameras. If you haven't found that yet, then you're just not paying attention, go anywhere, and look at how people actually are looking at you, then make a conscious effort to make it clear using body language that in no way you are interested in taking a photograph of them. Once you hold your camera in a way that is non-threatening, the interaction becomes much less tense.

For etiquette's sake, if I pass a group of people on the street I make sure my camera is pointing away from them as I approach. It makes a huge difference in the atmosphere and body language.

 

[MTVision]

Well "Nitpick" is certainly the right term to use, and your right it was a mistake on using this forum because everyone is an arm chair quarter back, trying to give opinions on stuff they do not have the details on, filling in the blanks, and making assumptions on stuff I was not asking about or asked for an opinion on, just as you are assuming I am using a Nikon D90 for this project which I am not and never stated I was using a Nikon D90, you just went into my profile saw I listed a Nikon D90 as one of my cameras (to which I have 84 by my last count) and started making your own assumptions and giving an opinion which is nothing related to my post. Yes everyone has a camera, and yes a Nikon D90 would not stand out in the crowd, but........ the Nikon D90 sits on a tripod in front of a product photography table and never leaves the studio and that is where it will stay (translation to that nice run on sentence: not the camera I am using)

oh crrrap you must have a Canon, that is why your dishing my Nikon, oh crap again, 500 more unrelated posts from Nikon haters and please that was a joke, I don't need 500 posts from Canon lovers, oh crap again, I made an "assumption" that you had a Canon, I "checked" your profile after I saved this post and had to come back in and re-edit, you have a Nikon, good job and before I get the hate mail I know is coming from Canon lovers, I worked my way through college as a manager at a camera store, at the time I had a choice between a Nikon FE and a Canon AE-1, at that time there was no comparison, it was either a good solid work horse camera, or a fancy bling camera that was totally dead if the battery went and kept coming back for repairs. Hence the Nikon FE, and well an FM too. Since then Canon and Nikon have been leap frogging each other and I just don't see the sense in swapping out an array of lenses each time they surpass each other, so my view now, throw any camera in my hands, it doesn't take the picture.

As I stated again in early posts, I do not care about how people are seeing me, contacting me, finding me, finding my photos, I have been there done that and I have that all worked out, that is not what I asked in the post.

As for a being a "strange person" taking pictures, by your definition, I was that "strange person" for 6 weeks, with 3 other "strange people" taking photos on the river in WV, no one found us "strange" being there in fact we ended up at quite a few parties because of it and I guess we were not "strange people" anymore A little advice, as long as you look professional, market yourself professionally, and act professionally, people WILL know why your there, at any event, and not see you as a "strange person" but as a "photographer" this is a photographer forum right?

And AGAIN I was not looking for hard core legal advice, I only posted to see if anyone was in the same situation as me so I could get pointed in the right direction, so when I do go seek "legal advice" I am well informed. I do not know why I have to keep making this statement post after post after post.

And AGAIN (being repetitive) as stated earlier, I may not be a rocket scientist, I am a lowly aircraft engineer by trade (we get our engineering degrees from cracker jack boxes), and maybe that is the fault of my trade, I like like to go into a meeting with any professional well informed, I am flawed, shoot me.

Mr. Attitude huh? It doesn't matter if your using a d90 or one of your 84 other cameras people aren't going to be like "wow look at that camera. " That's all I was getting at. And what I wrote did have something to do with your post (see below

LOL your not getting the point, if your going down a river, see a camera, see a camera like you have never seen before, so its going to make you physically point and say to other people, "hey look at that", and then they see below that camera "X4PHOTO.COM" once I got back home, I would want to go see what that silly camera was about and go look up "X4PHOTO.COM" right?

Also, I wasn't calling you strange per se - I don't know you obviously. Like, Unpopular wrote some people feel uncomfortable around cameras and may see you as some strange guy taking their picture. Good for you that you got invited to some parties. If its working out for you then that's all that really matters right?

Even if you weren't looking for "hardcore legal advice" a forum is still the wrong place. Laws vary from state to state and country to country. Maybe someone was in the same situation as you - how would their advice help you if they lived in Africa? Talking to people online isn't necessarily going to help you to be well-informed when you go into a meeting with a lawyer but as an aircraft engineer - you already know this.

Also, I did actually read through this thread and people did give you good advice and quite a few said it sounded like a good idea. Obviously people are going to give their opinions on information you gave to them.

 

[unpopular]

Megan - can you follow me around and interpret what I say in ways that are less likely to make people angry?

 

[x4photo]

It's the internet , you seem to know everything you need to know go talk to a local layer (like that ) to find your answers.

Ahh That was you with the "layer" thing LOL that one threw me for a loop at first, especially after watching some training video on advanced blending modes in Photosop but it did make me laugh in an other wise frustrating post thanks!

 

[x4photo]

Well "Nitpick" is certainly the right term to use, and your right it was a mistake on using this forum because everyone is an arm chair quarter back, trying to give opinions on stuff they do not have the details on, filling in the blanks, and making assumptions on stuff I was not asking about or asked for an opinion on, just as you are assuming I am using a Nikon D90 for this project which I am not and never stated I was using a Nikon D90, you just went into my profile saw I listed a Nikon D90 as one of my cameras (to which I have 84 by my last count) and started making your own assumptions and giving an opinion which is nothing related to my post. Yes everyone has a camera, and yes a Nikon D90 would not stand out in the crowd, but........ the Nikon D90 sits on a tripod in front of a product photography table and never leaves the studio and that is where it will stay (translation to that nice run on sentence: not the camera I am using)

oh crrrap you must have a Canon, that is why your dishing my Nikon, oh crap again, 500 more unrelated posts from Nikon haters and please that was a joke, I don't need 500 posts from Canon lovers, oh crap again, I made an "assumption" that you had a Canon, I "checked" your profile after I saved this post and had to come back in and re-edit, you have a Nikon, good job and before I get the hate mail I know is coming from Canon lovers, I worked my way through college as a manager at a camera store, at the time I had a choice between a Nikon FE and a Canon AE-1, at that time there was no comparison, it was either a good solid work horse camera, or a fancy bling camera that was totally dead if the battery went and kept coming back for repairs. Hence the Nikon FE, and well an FM too. Since then Canon and Nikon have been leap frogging each other and I just don't see the sense in swapping out an array of lenses each time they surpass each other, so my view now, throw any camera in my hands, it doesn't take the picture.

As I stated again in early posts, I do not care about how people are seeing me, contacting me, finding me, finding my photos, I have been there done that and I have that all worked out, that is not what I asked in the post.

As for a being a "strange person" taking pictures, by your definition, I was that "strange person" for 6 weeks, with 3 other "strange people" taking photos on the river in WV, no one found us "strange" being there in fact we ended up at quite a few parties because of it and I guess we were not "strange people" anymore A little advice, as long as you look professional, market yourself professionally, and act professionally, people WILL know why your there, at any event, and not see you as a "strange person" but as a "photographer" this is a photographer forum right?

And AGAIN I was not looking for hard core legal advice, I only posted to see if anyone was in the same situation as me so I could get pointed in the right direction, so when I do go seek "legal advice" I am well informed. I do not know why I have to keep making this statement post after post after post.

And AGAIN (being repetitive) as stated earlier, I may not be a rocket scientist, I am a lowly aircraft engineer by trade (we get our engineering degrees from cracker jack boxes), and maybe that is the fault of my trade, I like like to go into a meeting with any professional well informed, I am flawed, shoot me.

Mr. Attitude huh? It doesn't matter if your using a d90 or one of your 84 other cameras people aren't going to be like "wow look at that camera. " That's all I was getting at. And what I wrote did have something to do with your post (see below

LOL your not getting the point, if your going down a river, see a camera, see a camera like you have never seen before, so its going to make you physically point and say to other people, "hey look at that", and then they see below that camera "X4PHOTO.COM" once I got back home, I would want to go see what that silly camera was about and go look up "X4PHOTO.COM" right?

Also, I wasn't calling you strange per se - I don't know you obviously. Like, Unpopular wrote some people feel uncomfortable around cameras and may see you as some strange guy taking their picture. Good for you that you got invited to some parties. If its working out for you then that's all that really matters right?

Even if you weren't looking for "hardcore legal advice" a forum is still the wrong place. Laws vary from state to state and country to country. Maybe someone was in the same situation as you - how would their advice help you if they lived in Africa? Talking to people online isn't necessarily going to help you to be well-informed when you go into a meeting with a lawyer but as an aircraft engineer - you already know this.

Also, I did actually read through this thread and people did give you good advice and quite a few said it sounded like a good idea. Obviously people are going to give their opinions on information you gave to them.

Mr Attitude? now where did you ever get that? LOL , angry, well no not really, did you not see the smiley faces, frustrated yes

OK I get it you do not know the details of the project, I get why you would have to give an opinion on why people will not notice the camera, its just I really don't want to go into all the details of the project, because that is not the information I was looking for and I didn't want to open up a whole can of worms on the marketing end, when I all I wanted was info from a fellow photographer, that is working as a paid photographer, and possibly could save me some ground work because a lot of the "general" law regarding photography applies across the country.

And I get it that either you have not worked with a lot of lawyers, or you are independently wealthy and love to spend time in a lawyers office. Actually some of the information and key information I needed was posted by the moderator of this forum. Link Photography and the Law that answered a key question for me, now I can now go into the lawyers office and at least be on the same page as him. I am not sure why that doesn't sound logical to you, but I am at a loss as to why I have to keep explaining that I am not going to base my whole business on what I find out on the internet, especially in the areas of law and that I just want to be informed on some key issues, so I can focus on those when I speak to a lawyer and not have the Constitution in its entirety read to me as I watch $20 bills fly past my face was that attitude again?

As for Mr Unpopular LOL believe me your post was not hard to interpret, yes I know people get buggy about their photos sometimes when they are having their pictures taken randomly, and appears, that your taking their picture for no reason at all. But when you are at some sporting event, and your taking pictures of people participating in the sporting event, I am not sure I have ever met someone, that has not expected to have their picture taken? have you? Which brings up the second point I made, if you act professionally, market yourself, act the part, and people see your company name on you, they will associate you as a "photographer" You were just again bringing up situations where people would get buggy about having their photos taken, which didn't apply to my situation, or again what information I was looking for in the post, make sense?

 

[MTVision]

Mr Attitude? now where did you ever get that? LOL , angry, well no not really, did you not see the smiley faces, frustrated yes

OK I get it you do not know the details of the project, I get why you would have to give an opinion on why people will not notice the camera, its just I really don't want to go into all the details of the project, because that is not the information I was looking for and I didn't want to open up a whole can of worms on the marketing end, when I all I wanted was info from a fellow photographer, that is working as a paid photographer, and possibly could save me some ground work because a lot of the "general" law regarding photography applies across the country.

And I get it that either you have not worked with a lot of lawyers, or you are independently wealthy and love to spend time in a lawyers office. Actually some of the information and key information I needed was posted by the moderator of this forum. Link Photography and the Law that answered a key question for me, now I can now go into the lawyers office and at least be on the same page as him. I am not sure why that doesn't sound logical to you, but I am at a loss as to why I have to keep explaining that I am not going to base my whole business on what I find out on the internet, especially in the areas of law and that I just want to be informed on some key issues, so I can focus on those when I speak to a lawyer and not have the Constitution in its entirety read to me as I watch $20 bills fly past my face was that attitude again?

As for Mr Unpopular LOL believe me your post was not hard to interpret, yes I know people get buggy about their photos sometimes when they are having their pictures taken randomly, and appears, that your taking their picture for no reason at all. But when you are at some sporting event, and your taking pictures of people participating in the sporting event, I am not sure I have ever met someone, that has not expected to have their picture taken? have you? Which brings up the second point I made, if you act professionally, market yourself, act the part, and people see your company name on you, they will associate you as a "photographer" You were just again bringing up situations where people would get buggy about having their photos taken, which didn't apply to my situation, or again what information I was looking for in the post, make sense?

Everybody knows you aren't going to base your business off what you find on the Internet, you just keep repeating yourself for some reason. Like I said, asking a forum of people legal advice isn't the best idea because people are going to voice their OPINIONS! The article you found on here Was written by one of the members and you could've saved yourself a lot of trouble by utilizing the search function. You could've done your own ground work.

Most lawyers offer free consultations so you could've gone to a lawyer and not spend a dime. And you are right that some of the "general" laws regarding photography applies across the US but this isn't a US forum - that's what I was getting at.

You did open a can of worms by telling people how you were going to get people's attention. You didn't have to answer the questions........I don't know the details of your project nor do I really care - its your business not mine. I was just pointing out that your idea that people are going to notice your awesome never before seen camera and point and say "look at that camera" is flawed.

 

[shootermcgavin]

Let's try to keep this post less than 21 pages like the why do you need to learn aperture, shutter speed, iso post.... You seem to be sure of yourself and have a million dollar idea, it's a great attitude to have but it's normally the attitude of someone who hasn't ever run a business before. No matter what you learn from a forum, from 50 lawyers, from anyone you can not foresee what will happen. You could get sued for something you don't even think was possible, so I would worry less about being sued and more about how to stay ahead of your competition, which you will have if a company that does these trips professionally realizes you're making money off their customers. If I ran a business and saw you doing that I would bring that cash flow to me within a week. You're not setting up something elaborate and a photo or video in the hands of their customer at the end of the day would blow you out of the water because it is instant. Like I said originally great idea for short term but long term I don't see it lasting.

 

[x4photo]

Let's try to keep this post less than 21 pages like the why do you need to learn aperture, shutter speed, iso post.... You seem to be sure of yourself and have a million dollar idea, it's a great attitude to have but it's normally the attitude of someone who hasn't ever run a business before. No matter what you learn from a forum, from 50 lawyers, from anyone you can not foresee what will happen. You could get sued for something you don't even think was possible, so I would worry less about being sued and more about how to stay ahead of your competition, which you will have if a company that does these trips professionally realizes you're making money off their customers. If I ran a business and saw you doing that I would bring that cash flow to me within a week. You're not setting up something elaborate and a photo or video in the hands of their customer at the end of the day would blow you out of the water because it is instant. Like I said originally great idea for short term but long term I don't see it lasting.

Now what is it they say about making assumptions?

Actually I own/run another businesses, I have an eyewear company I started in my garage making $200 a month, through "marketing" and through connections I made on my over seas contracts with my aircraft career, this company now operates out of a 3,000 sq foot facility which is now full and has expanded every month over the last three years in sales through this recession and that company has zero debt other than obviously monthly receivables. Staying ahead of the competition is an everyday endeavor in the eyewear industry. That is why I asked questions before getting involved in the eyewear industry, talked in forums about liabilities in regards to safety eyewear, researched it, yes on the internet first, then went and saw a lawyer, did my homework, so I was "INFORMED" before launching that company. I studied the competition and came up with a line of eyewear that was not in the industry and based on my personal experiences of being in many aircraft hangars, and was a hit some some big corporations, I was lucky? maybe, maybe it was because I did my homework! So no its not the attitude of someone who has never run a business before, have you? Its the attitude of someone, that likes to be informed fully before launching a company, and looks to solve barriers not be scared by them.

I have some major barriers/issues to resolve with this photography idea, so yes I could be very profitable, or I could have some major stumbling blocks, "eyes wide open" and as with the eyewear company have come up with a way to be above the competition, at least for awhile, or at least long enough to become established.

I am glad to see, you do not think, one should look at all aspects of a company as being equally important and dependent on each other, legal, marketing, distribution,(staying ahead of the competition) etc AND that generally comes from someone that has NOT run a business before, and yes you cannot foresee all the stuff that is going to happen in a business, and its going to bite you in the perverbial ... if you don't at least be as knowledgeable as you can be.

Post after Post after Post, I was looking for info from some photographer that makes a paid living at it, that would have some experience in this area, this is obviously not you.

So please if you do not have the first hand knowledge of dealing with lawyers, under a photographic business license, then don't post stuff your guessing on, then YES we can keep this post under 21 pages.

 

[shootermcgavin]

You lack all signs of someone who has run a business, going on the internet and asking others in a forum is the first tell, backing it up by saying you're looking to be prepared before you go to a lawyer is the next. Talking about your successful company that is growing while looking at starting another that is not even closely related, it just doesn't make sense. You go work with that guy that has a "photographic business license" and see how far that gets you. Your hole you dig gets deeper and deeper the more you post I'm sorry you don't realize that.

 

[unpopular]

epic 21 page thread, here we come.

 

[x4photo]

You lack all signs of someone who has run a business, going on the internet and asking others in a forum is the first tell, backing it up by saying you're looking to be prepared before you go to a lawyer is the next. Talking about your successful company that is growing while looking at starting another that is not even closely related, it just doesn't make sense. You go work with that guy that has a "photographic business license" and see how far that gets you. Your hole you dig gets deeper and deeper the more you post I'm sorry you don't realize that.

No nothing would make sense to you, because you do not have the details, but unfortunately have enough information to make ignorant posts. You keep working at the post office job and go for that gold watch retirement, and keep up your backyard flower picture taking, I applaud you. Unfortunate for me, I don't stand still in life, and if I can mix business with other passions I have in my life, I will pursue them, regardless of what other things or business I have going on in my life. If I fail or succeed, who cares, I had fun doing it, and if that pisses you off then well find your own life.

And the businesses may not seem related to you, because your not thinking past your nose, but I still keep hands on that business doing all the product photography and model shoots as well, why because I love photography

And don't worry about my hole, I have a big shovel, I think it might work on your BS too,

Shooter MacGiver, does your camera double as a Swiss army knife also?

I got the information I needed from the moderator of this whole forum, someone with first hand knowledge unlike ^above^ Sooo...

As the one that created this post, can I just delete it, because this is really getting old, and I would really like to please "Unpopular" and make sure this doesn't hit 21 pages with your rants

 

[MTVision]

No nothing would make sense to you, because you do not have the details, but unfortunately have enough information to make ignorant posts. You keep working at the post office job and go for that gold watch retirement, and keep up your backyard flower picture taking, I applaud you. Unfortunate for me, I don't stand still in life, and if I can mix business with other passions I have in my life, I will pursue them, regardless of what other things or business I have going on in my life. If I fail or succeed, who cares, I had fun doing it, and if that pisses you off then well find your own life.

And the businesses may not seem related to you, because your not thinking past your nose, but I still keep hands on that business doing all the product photography and model shoots as well, why because I love photography

And don't worry about my hole, I have a big shovel, I think it might work on your BS too,

Shooter MacGiver, does your camera double as a Swiss army knife also?

I got the information I needed from the moderator of this whole forum, someone with first hand knowledge unlike ^above^ Sooo...

As the one that created this post, can I just delete it, because this is really getting old, and I would really like to please "Unpopular" and make sure this doesn't hit 21 pages with your rants

No you can't delete the thread, unfortunately. FYI: it wasn't a moderator that wrote that post you are referring too. It was just a regular member. I don't believe there is one moderator over the whole site. There are a group of volunteer moderators. Overread is one. If you send him a message he might lock the thread so nobody can post anymore. But, with the way it's going it's gonna get locked sooner or later.