Lighting and Editing - Am I doing this right?

[Derrel]

Today, it has become very difficult to locate good lessons in regard to photographing the female form and face. About 30 years ago I read two books that were instrumental in teaching me how to photograph women. Former celebrity and commercial photography Gary Bernstein wrote several books, and another book that was very useful was the book titled How To Photograph Women Beautifully, which was written by J. Barry O' Rourke.

Just a few days ago a poster here on the forum asked a question. She asked "are these two photographs both using short lighting?" And then she gave links to two photos in instructional articles,both of which were labeled "short lighting@, however the first photo was the exact opposite--- it was made using " broad lighting"... which is the type of error that makes learning so difficult in this, the Internet era. Without an editor,Horrific mistakes such as this are very common in today's online instruction materials.

In one sentence, in one word, I would tell you, if you wish to learn photography, First seek out book learning. And make it a habit of understanding small but important fundamental secrets that photography is built upon. Most of today's newer instructional material is what I call recipe books, which show the photographer how to perform certain operations but Neglecting important fundamentals like lens selection,camera height, shooting distance, and posing.

For example you asked a question earlier :how do I change lighting?the answer to your question is that when using natural light, such asthat found from the sun or from the sky, is to change the physical position of the subject in relation to the light that is present, by turning the body , or moving the person closer or farther from the light source. When using man-made light sources such as strobes or hot lights or LED lights, it's easy to reposition the lights themselves in relation to the subject. This is the difference between natural light shooting and using what most people call "artificial light".

You spoke of reflector angle and catch lights above. No, the angle of the reflector is not the same as the height or position of the reflector. The angle of the reflector, which is occasionally called the attitude ---.it's not the same thing as the height of the reflector.

Speaking of reflectors, you asked about lights that are not $200 each. Reflectors are now as inexpensive as five or six dollars for foamcore boards, up to $45-$50 for made in China round reflectors,from manufacturers such as Westcott. There are extremely expensive fabric reflectors from companies like Scrim Jimand California Sunbounce. On the web you can find a how to build it to print guide called tinker toys, which was kind of a thing about 10 years ago

Learning about photography in many ways is now more difficult than it has ever been, since the majority of learning is user driven and not taught,in the old-school sense of a very experienced person passing on knowledge to inexperienced people. Instead in this era of the Internet people try to learn without knowing what it is that they do not know. Because of this I would suggest that you buy a few books that were written at least 10 years ago, and which are not recipe books that teach you how to do novel and trendy digital software operations, but instead teach you about the fundamentals of photography, in whatever area you wish to pursue

 

[ac12]

So do her feet look too big or too small?

You're suggesting that I shoot from further away from the subject (which I can do) and/or that I use a longer lens (which I can't currently do as I have a point and shoot camera). However, others have cited long shooting distance and long lens as the reason why the background stands out; how do I solve the one problem without creating the other?

According to the manual (page 48), your camera has a zoom lens.
Zoom out to a longer telephoto setting.
If you have not used the zoom, sit down with the manual and your camera, and follow the instructions in the manual. Then experiment with the zoom, zooming in/out at various things until you are comfortable with it.

As for background.
You the photographer has to be observant of the background and position the subject to minimize background distraction.
The lens can only do so much to reduce that, it won't work magic to eliminate a distracting background.
Even if you blur the background of shot #3, it will still be bright and dark.
There are times when you just cannot do anything about the background and simply have to relocate to a spot where you have a better background.

White balance, page 136 of the manual.
Set to "daylight" to avoid the camera getting confused by all the green grass.

Trick, Have her hold a plain WHITE sheet of paper, and shoot a pic of her and the paper.
In your editing software, you adjust the color settings to make that piece of paper WHITE. Write down the adjustments. Now you know the adjustments you have to make to your other pictures.
This will also help compensate to some degree, the green light reflected from the grass onto her.​

 

[ElNico]

What ac12 and Derrel are saying above about depth of field isn't gelling together for me right now; I think I need to read it when I'm less tired.

You the photographer has to be observant of the background and position the subject to minimize background distraction.
The lens can only do so much to reduce that, it won't work magic to eliminate a distracting background.
Even if you blur the background of shot #3, it will still be bright and dark.
There are times when you just cannot do anything about the background and simply have to relocate to a spot where you have a better background.

I've agreed that I need to get better at spotting and avoiding distracting background objects. I never said that I intended to completely solve this problem by blurring the background; I was just responding to what others have said about how the background should have been blurred via depth of field.

I have been involved with photography for about 45 years now, and one thing I'll tell you is that the modern state of photographic instruction with YouTube and Web based articles is different than it used to be. Today, we have many people who are not experienced trained professionals, either writing or creating or editing instructional content, which is seen on the World Wide Web in blogs and websites, and on YouTube and other video networks. Many times, these articles are either incorrect or are misleading

Another reason why telling me "go learn about [subject] and then you will know the answer" is not helpful.

As for books, I've read Picture Perfect Posing by Roberto Valenzuela.

For example you asked a question earlier :how do I change lighting?

I'm not sure which question you're referring to.

You spoke of reflector angle and catch lights above. No, the angle of the reflector is not the same as the height or position of the reflector.

The angle of the tilt of the reflector is equal to the angle of the position of the reflector, assuming that the reflector is pointed at the model. What I was asking was whether the latter angle (the angle that an imaginary line between the reflector and the model makes with the horizontal) is equal to the angle of the catchlights.

Speaking of reflectors, you asked about lights that are not $200 each. Reflectors are now as inexpensive as five or six dollars for foamcore boards, up to $45-$50 for made in China round reflectors,from manufacturers such as Westcott.

tirediron suggested that I get "some lighting." Since it had been established that I was already using a reflector, I assumed that he meant electronic lighting. My question referred to lighting that is both electronic and usable outdoors. If he just meant that I need to buy more reflectors, that's fine.

Set to "daylight" to avoid the camera getting confused by all the green grass.

Can I do this while still controlling aperture, ISO, EV, etc? I'm too lazy to pull out my camera to check right now.

Trick, Have her hold a plain WHITE sheet of paper, and shoot a pic of her and the paper.
In your editing software, you adjust the color settings to make that piece of paper WHITE. Write down the adjustments. Now you know the adjustments you have to make to your other pictures.

That's helpful, thanks.​

 

[ac12]

Quote

ac12 said: ↑
Set to "daylight" to avoid the camera getting confused by all the green grass.​

Quote

Can I do this while still controlling aperture, ISO, EV, etc? I'm too lazy to pull out my camera to check right now.​

I don't have your camera.
Read the manual and try it.

 

[ElNico]

I raised overall exposure +.39 in this edit. Second is WB, just a tad to warm based on the white in the eyes. Shadows needed to be bumped up,(this is where you needed a white reflector to bring light into the eyes and face) increased the White, contrast and changed the crop.

I actually already thought a closer crop looked better on this photo. I'm not sure why I showed a wider one; either I thought that would illustrate my question about lighting better, or I just uploaded the wrong file.

I don't know what "exposure +.39" means, and suspect it refers to something that I can't measure with my software. For me, the slider goes between zero and +/- 100; I increased exposure by 20.

I brightened the shadows, increased the contrast, and decreased the warmth very slightly.

I don't know what "increase the White" means. Does it just mean "make it brighter?" I have a "Light" slider, which is a super-category to a bunch of other sliders, including Exposure; I assumed that if I wanted the image to be brighter, it's better to use the Exposure slider for that and to leave "Light" alone. Should I be increasing both?

Here's the result.


DSC02325 (close) (CntP30 ExpP20 ShaP20 WrmM3) B by El Nico, on Flickr

How's that? Did I overdo (or underdo) anything?


EDIT - Another attempt, increasing exposure less and contrast more. I think this one looks more similar to JBPhotog's edit (which is easier to compare with as it's higher quality than Smoke's or Derrel's); is this better?


DSC02325 (close) (CntP50 ExpP10 ShaP20 WrmM3) B by El Nico, on Flickr

 

[smoke665]

either my attempts to do so do not answer the question at hand, or I've already learned the basics of the subject but again still don't know the answer.

When my kids gave me this in years past, it usually meant they didn't understand what they'd learned or had missed the important parts. As mentioned earlier you are hampered somewhat both in equipment and in post processing. Over the years I've found it best to break questions down into small parts for discussion rather than trying to consider all at once.

Let's talk about WB (white balance) first. When you snap the shutter, your camera is recording the light reflected off your subject. All light has what's called color temperature, which refers to the relative warmth or coolness of light. Understanding White Balance Why is it important with a digital camera? It's important because when we're looking at an object both the human eye and the camera sensor are seeing the "reflected" light off the subject. The marvel of the human eye is that it automatically corrects so that whites remain white and blacks remain black. The digital sensor doesn't it records the reflected light as is. If you're shooting outside in the early morning, then your light will be warm (red,orange, yellow), and the reflected light recorded by your sensor will reflect that, hence there is a need in some cases to "adjust" the WB to bring the white back to white, and black to black, so that the colors can be accurately reflected.

It's easy to confuse WB adjustment with Hue adjustment but they're not the same.

Now let's talk about the digital image, your camera records a scene as data, the more data it records the better your image is likely to be. That raw data has to be processed before it can be viewed as an image. There's two way that's handled, either in camera or after the fact in post processing. Your particular model camera does not offer the option to save the Raw file, only a JPEG. So your camera has taken most of the processing capabilities of the file away from you, and applied what the manufacturer thought would work best, including the adjustment of WB. So how do you get around that? First understanding and recognizing the color temperature of the light you're shooting in is paramount. Next, your particular model camera has WB settings in the menu that you can change DSC-HX100/HX100V | White Balance | Cyber-shot User Guide by trying these setting and learning how they work, you can produce an image with minimal color casts.

Now in the context of your images, you mentioned using a Gold reflector. What effect do you think that would have on the light reflected from your subject? What if you'd used a silver reflector? Or a plain white reflector?

FYI if you don't have the camera manual here is a full copy of it https://docs.sony.com/release/dsc-hx100_hx100v_guide_en.pdf For a point and shoot, the camera is rather sophisticated, so understanding the settings available will go a long way toward producing consistent quality images.

 

[Designer]

#3; Is this photograph a composite?

A combination of two photos? No, why?

I can see in Photo #3 the sidewalk edge and her shin...what's going on there?

Not a clue. Anyone have any theories?

To me, it looks as if her feet are not positioned on the sidewalk as when people are standing. Almost as if the feet and sidewalk were not actually together (in the same place at the same time) when you made the photograph. The ghost of the curb superimposed over her leg only adds to that impression.

 

[Designer]

So do her feet look too big or too small?

You're suggesting that I shoot from further away from the subject (which I can do) and/or that I use a longer lens (which I can't currently do as I have a point and shoot camera). However, others have cited long shooting distance and long lens as the reason why the background stands out; how do I solve the one problem without creating the other?

Most "point and shoot" cameras have the ability to "zoom" by stretching the lens out via a small motor built into the camera. When you wish to "zoom", you press the button toward the "T" (for telephoto) and conversely toward the "W" for wide.

Therefore, our suggestion would be to zoom out, and step back away from your subject so that your lens is more level instead of pointing downward.

The long-established "rule of thumb" for portraiture is to use a long lens. In the 35mm film camera days, 105mm was the bottom end, while most would prefer at least 135mm or even longer. Translate that to "crop sensor" and your equivalent focal length could easily be 200 to 300mm or even longer. Your camera is probably not going to give you that number while you're shooting, but just go much longer than you are currently, and you'll get a good focal length.

 

[smoke665]

I don't know what "exposure +.39" means, and suspect it refers to something that I can't measure with my software. For me, the slider goes between zero and +/- 100; I increased exposure by 20.

Tirediron previously commented that he thought the first shot was about a 1/3 of a stop underexposed. I raised the exposure in the Lr by just over 1/3 of a stop or .39.

Let's talk about exposure. In any scene the "Dynamic Range" refers to the ratio between the maximum and minimum measurable light intensities from the darkest dark in the shadow to highest highlight referred to as stops. Understanding Dynamic Range in Digital Photography I couldn't find a measure of the capability of your particular model, but I'm guessing <12 stops. That means any light reflected above or below the camera capability wouldn't be recorded. When the DR of a scene exceeds the capability of your camera you have two options - Reduce the light on the highlights by blocking it, moving your subject, or changing your camera position, and/or using supplemental light to raise the shadow areas, either using a flash or reflectors.

In a previous comment, I told you that the more data you recorded the better your image will likely be. The best way of judging the exposure is to use the Histogram. Your particular camera model has the ability to display that DSC-HX100/HX100V | DISP (Display Setting) | Cyber-shot User Guide Ideally you want the graph extending from the far left to the far right, but not extending up on either end. If it extends up on the right it means you've reached a point where additional data is blown out (not recording), if you go up the left, you've reached the maximum black and any additional amount up, means you are losing shadow detail.

Your particular camera has multiple metering modes. DSC-HX100/HX100V | Metering Mode | Cyber-shot User Guide I personally use spot most of the time, because it allows me to read the exposure on specific areas and gives me a feel for the DR on the scene. Once I've made adjustments to the light, I use the spot mode again to read the eye, if the eye is right the rest will likely be acceptable.

Now going back to your first image, how could you have improved it??? Could you have moved her some to get better light overall? How could you have used a reflector/multiple reflectors to bring light into the shadows? How could you have used the metering modes on your specific camera to get a better exposure on the face? When thinking of reflectors, don't forget buildings, walls, etc. can also serve as a reflector. Just remember what I said about WB earlier if those walls aren't white.

One thing I found helpful early on was using my wife's wig head. I spent some time with it and a reflector, studying how the movement in/out, up/down, affected the shadows and highlights.

 

[ElNico]

either my attempts to do so do not answer the question at hand, or I've already learned the basics of the subject but again still don't know the answer.

When my kids gave me this in years past, it usually meant they didn't understand what they'd learned or had missed the important parts. As mentioned earlier you are hampered somewhat both in equipment and in post processing. Over the years I've found it best to break questions down into small parts for discussion rather than trying to consider all at once.

Let's talk about WB (white balance) first. When you snap the shutter, your camera is recording the light reflected off your subject. All light has what's called color temperature, which refers to the relative warmth or coolness of light. Understanding White Balance Why is it important with a digital camera? It's important because when we're looking at an object both the human eye and the camera sensor are seeing the "reflected" light off the subject. The marvel of the human eye is that it automatically corrects so that whites remain white and blacks remain black. The digital sensor doesn't it records the reflected light as is. If you're shooting outside in the early morning, then your light will be warm (red,orange, yellow), and the reflected light recorded by your sensor will reflect that, hence there is a need in some cases to "adjust" the WB to bring the white back to white, and black to black, so that the colors can be accurately reflected.

View attachment 173821

It's easy to confuse WB adjustment with Hue adjustment but they're not the same.

Now let's talk about the digital image, your camera records a scene as data, the more data it records the better your image is likely to be. That raw data has to be processed before it can be viewed as an image. There's two way that's handled, either in camera or after the fact in post processing. Your particular model camera does not offer the option to save the Raw file, only a JPEG. So your camera has taken most of the processing capabilities of the file away from you, and applied what the manufacturer thought would work best, including the adjustment of WB. So how do you get around that? First understanding and recognizing the color temperature of the light you're shooting in is paramount. Next, your particular model camera has WB settings in the menu that you can change DSC-HX100/HX100V | White Balance | Cyber-shot User Guide by trying these setting and learning how they work, you can produce an image with minimal color casts.

Now in the context of your images, you mentioned using a Gold reflector. What effect do you think that would have on the light reflected from your subject? What if you'd used a silver reflector? Or a plain white reflector?

FYI if you don't have the camera manual here is a full copy of it https://docs.sony.com/release/dsc-hx100_hx100v_guide_en.pdf For a point and shoot, the camera is rather sophisticated, so understanding the settings available will go a long way toward producing consistent quality images.

Thank you for taking the time to write all of that. However:
(1) You seem to be under the impression that I asked you to teach me about the subject you're telling me to go learn about. I did not. Granted, in some scenarios that might be necessary, but that's not what I said. Thank you again for putting in the effort to explain all of that, but that's not what I was annoyed at you for not doing. I was asking for something that takes much less effort.
(2) As I've said and indicated repeatedly, I have a basic understanding of what color balance is. What I don't know, what learning about the subject does not allow me to recognize, and what I was trying to convey in that long spiel that you should tell me instead, is in which direction the color balance is off.

That said, there's one thing that I may have been misunderstanding. The software I'm using has a slider for "warmth," which controls blue/orange balance, and "tint," which controls green/purple balance. When you say "white balance," are you referring to only the first of those two things? Even then, though, knowing about the subject doesn't necessarily let me recognize whether a specific image is too warm or too cool.

You said earlier when editing picture #1 that you were using the model's eyes to judge the white balance. This is very helpful, and is another example of something that takes very little time to say but is infinitely more helpful than saying "learn what white balance is."

Thank you for pointing out that my camera has setting to correct for WB, I did not realize that.

Therefore, our suggestion would be to zoom out, and step back away from your subject so that your lens is more level instead of pointing downward.

Fair point that the zoom affects the lens length. Did you mean to say "zoom IN and step back," though? Zooming in makes the lens longer - which is what people have been telling me to do - and allows me to step back while keeping the model the same size in the frame. Zooming out would require me to step forward to compensate.

How could you have used a reflector/multiple reflectors to bring light into the shadows?

I only had one reflector. I can get more.

This is a question I could save for asking in the store when buying reflectors, but while I'm on the subject: Should I have multiple "big" reflectors with big stands, or can I have one big reflector to use as the key light, and two or three smaller reflectors that are used for more focused fills and take less time to adjust?​

 

[Derrel]

It is difficult to ascertain exactly "what' or how much a forum member knows. Apologies if you took umbrage at responses that were designed to help you,but it appears to me that there are several fundamental difficulties you are trying to work through. I have a feeling that in a few years' time, you will be wayyyyyy ahead of where you are now. I remember your prior appearance here, and that it was a bit rocky.

When somebody provides you with info that is not what you asked for, it is surely frustrating.But... what are you gonna do?

Again... my suggestion is... turn to BOOKS for instruction and guidance, not the web, not YouTube,etc.

"Watch your backgrounds" is an old,old adage, and it is doubly important with today's digicams...deep DOF has never been so easy to get!

 

[ac12]

Quote

Fair point that the zoom affects the lens length. Did you mean to say "zoom IN and step back," though? Zooming in makes the lens longer - which is what people have been telling me to do - and allows me to step back while keeping the model the same size in the frame. Zooming out would require me to step forward to compensate.


smoke665 said: ↑
How could you have used a reflector/multiple reflectors to bring light into the shadows?
I only had one reflector. I can get more.

This is a question I could save for asking in the store when buying reflectors, but while I'm on the subject: Should I have multiple "big" reflectors with big stands, or can I have one big reflector to use as the key light, and two or three smaller reflectors that are used for more focused fills and take less time to adjust?​

There is a lot of confusion about the term zooming in/out.

Some view in/out as it looks in the camera. You zoom in making the image angle tighter, longer focal length. You zoom out to make the image angle wider.
Some view in/out as the focal length. Zoom in is shorter/wider, out is longer/tighter.​

Neither is wrong, just a different interpretation of the phrase. Unfortunately it can get confusing.
So whenever you see zoom in/out, you have to study the sentence to see what they mean.

Reflectors

• Caution, a reflector is a sail. The bigger it is, the more wind it will catch, and the harder it will be to control it.
  With stands, you will NEED sandbags, to hold down the legs of the stand. But if the wind is strong enough, even the sandbags won't work.
  In certain situations, the best reflector stand is a person/friend holding the reflector.

• You will sooner or later end up with several reflectors and light modifiers; different sizes (big, medium and small) and different colors (gold, silver, white, blend), a light block (a black reflector to block the light), a diffuser (a translucent material to diffuse/soften the light).

• The size you use depends on the subject and image. Why use a BIG reflector for a head and shoulder portrait. But the BIG reflector is a larger source of light, so it can work well for H&S shots. If you are doing full length shots, you may indeed need a couple BIG reflectors. It all depends on the shoot, environment and lighting conditions.
  And remember the bigger the reflector the more wind it will catch.

• As for "smaller reflector taking less time to adjust." IMHO, size does not matter, they will all take time to adjust. The better you get at reading the light, and understanding how to use the reflector in that situation, the faster it will go.

 

[Derrel]

Round reflectors (mostly spring-open types) have become very popular, but square or rectangular reflectors (often made of PVC pipes) give you a flat surface to prop on the ground, to lash or tape, or to clip to another reflector, to make an "A' setup, or a "sandwich board" style reflector.

Reflector frames an be home-made using PVC pipe and elbows, and frames or "panels" are sometimes fitted with black fabric or semi-transparent fabric ("silks") etc.

Panels. reflectors, scrims...scrim lighting..

Dean Collins ( hunt thru YouTube videos, and see DEAN light with panels)

"scrim lighting" is very, very versatile! Really versatile!

his "tinker toys" PDF is probably still out there, somewhere.

i have my favorite P72 panel....

 

[Designer]

Therefore, our suggestion would be to zoom out, and step back away from your subject so that your lens is more level instead of pointing downward.

Fair point that the zoom affects the lens length. Did you mean to say "zoom IN and step back," though? Zooming in makes the lens longer - which is what people have been telling me to do - and allows me to step back while keeping the model the same size in the frame. Zooming out would require me to step forward to compensate.​

"IN, OUT" yes, I probably used the incorrect terminology on that one. Sorry for the confusion.​

 

[Derrel]

Fat chance and slim chance, slow down, slow up mean the same thing...