Lighting question: 'what I want vs. what I can afford' puzzle

[Leftyplayer]

I'm looking into monolights.

I would be using the lights mostly indoors for portraits, small family shoots, things like maternity shoots, etc. In many cases, I'd be going to people's homes, so portability is important. I would also use it outdoors, mostly for fill-light with the occasional need to overpower the sun. I would be shooting full-frame with a 5DMKII. I currently have an umbrella and a speedlight - hate the recycle time. Right now, I'm at the learning level - i.e., not getting paid for photography and who knows if I ever will - that'll be determined by how good (or not) I get. Let me know if you need more info about me in order to help.

Soooo ... below is a list of what I WANT ... but it's not what I can afford - so the question is -- how do I bring that down by about half?! What do I replace with other options? What do I give up? What is a must if I'm going to learn seriously? Do I chuck the whole thing and go elsewhere? I also looked at Calumet Genesis and Flashpoint. But the Alienbees seemed the easiest to piece a "system" together from the website. I'm not sure if having more monolights would be better than going with one and getting quality accessories. The grid is on there because I like to do a lot of low key stuff and am under the illusion that it would be easier to do with a grid (correction wanted).

1 AlienBee800 Studio Flash $279.95
Vagabond Mini $239.95
22-inch High Output Beauty Dish - White $79.95
20 degree Grid $19.95
Cyber Commander $179.95
CSRB+ CyberSync Receiver Plus (battery) $89.95
LiteMod Barndoors $48.95
Einstein/Alienbee Single Light Carrying Bag $12.95
13-foot Air-Cushioned Stand $99.95

TOTAL = Approx $1080 (once basic shipping is included)

 

[Big Mike]

OK, this shouldn't be too hard.

First, get rid of the cyber commander. You don't need it, especially for just one light. If you want to go with cyber sync remotes (I use and love them), all you need is the CST and the CSRB. The CST is only $60. so there is $120 savings. And you don't really need the CSRB+, if you aren't going to use a Cyber Commander. So you can save another $20 by just getting the CSRB (not +).
*edit* If you someday want to have a multiple light studio set up, and want to be able to control all the lights, right from your camera, then the Cyber Commander would be the tool for that. But really, it's not hard to just walk over to your light and adjust the power.

And if you really want to cut your budget, just get something like this...Cactus Wireless Flash Trigger Set V4 - Gadget Infinity
It's a radio trigger set for $40. They do work and may be all that you need. They are just not as reliable as something like the Cyber Sync...but as you're not professional yet, you may be OK with the cheap set.

The Vagabond battery system is great when you are going to shoot outdoors, but it's not needed for shooting indoors (when you can plug into an outlet). So you may be able to save that purchase until you actually need it. You could probably put together a kit for less money (all you need is a battery and a pure sine wave inverter) but the Vagabond mini is actually a great size & price.

Do you really need the beauty dish and grid? You could save a lot by just using an umbrella (which you already have). Beauty dishes can be great, I'm thinking of getting one, but it's not like it's a drastic difference from an umbrella. Personally, I prefer a softbox to either. A softbox won't be any cheaper than a beauty dish & grid though. But my recommendation would be for the large foldable softbox....for shooting indoors anyway. It is nice that it sets up quickly, which is good when you shoot in people's homes.

The barn door accessory can be great, but I think you could get by without it. I'd save that for a later purchase, maybe when you add a couple more lights.

Lastly, don't be locked into Alienbee. You don't have to make your kit from the same site/company. AB does make it easy, and they do have great customer service, but as you are just starting out, the Genesis or Flashpoint brands may be a better way to go. (it's a long drawn out story/argument).

 

[Leftyplayer]

it's a long drawn out story/argument

I want to hear it *grin*

Yes, as I sit here obsessing about it, I'm thinking if I resign myself to plugging in for now, I can ditch the Vagabond until some later time. My greatest need is for indoor situations. Outdoors, I often manage with the strobe and are reflector (usually just a reflector will do), though I've had trouble with those "overpower the sun" moments - but, for now that may need to wait.

And thanks for the tip on downgrading the trigger mechanism - those are exactly the types of alternatives/ compromises I'm looking for. Keep 'em coming!

 

[Derrel]

Adorama sells its own monolights, the Flashpoint brand. Their MP models are Multi-Power: both AC wall current, and DC battery power. The Flashpoint 320 MP costs $199 with a 15-ounce DC battery that will power the 150 watt-second 320 MP model for 180 full-power flashes. The monolight itself has been raised in price to $119, with free shipping, along with a free light stand. VERY low price. For a 150 watt-second 320 MP monolight, wither with or without the battery, the price is substantially lower than the AB 400 monolights, which are 160 watt-seconds. The Vagabond Mini is not just a battery, but a battery + pure sine wave inverter, and it weighs 56 ounces, and costs $240 alone. I covered all this in a post last week. The bottom line, as I see it, is that the Flashpoint monolights offer the most bang-for-buck at a price that beginners or occasional users can actually AFFORD a 3- or 4- or even 5-light setup, with accessories. Alien Bees cost significantly more money.

 

[2WheelPhoto]

Adorama sells its own monolights, the Flashpoint brand. Their MP models are Multi-Power: both AC wall current, and DC battery power. The Flashpoint 320 MP costs $199 with a 15-ounce DC battery that will power the 150 watt-second 320 MP model for 180 full-power flashes. The monolight itself has been raised in price to $119, with free shipping, along with a free light stand. VERY low price. For a 150 watt-second 320 MP monolight, wither with or without the battery, the price is substantially lower than the AB 400 monolights, which are 160 watt-seconds. The Vagabond Mini is not just a battery, but a battery + pure sine wave inverter, and it weighs 56 ounces, and costs $240 alone. I covered all this in a post last week. The bottom line, as I see it, is that the Flashpoint monolights offer the most bang-for-buck at a price that beginners or occasional users can actually AFFORD a 3- or 4- or even 5-light setup, with accessories. Alien Bees cost significantly more money.

^^^^ My professor was saying the same thing about the Adorama Flashpoint lights, with high praise for them.

 

[Big Mike]

I want to hear it *grin*

Search the forum, there have been plenty of discussions over the years.

In a nutshell, AB lights are very popular amoung photo enthusiasts...but no so much with working pros. They have good marketing and like I said, their customer service it top notch. For the most part, they have a good reputation on internet forums, which is probably where most people who buy them, get their info.

As far as the light themselves, they are pretty good...but they have their issues. The body is made of plastic, not metal, like a good solid pro light would be. But it's a tough plastic so not really an issue and it makes them light. The back panel is cheaper plastic and leave a bit to be desired. More importantly, they are known to have a color shift, especially a lower light levels. Now, to be fair, most lights will have a color shift across the power range, but AB are worse than most. To some people, this isn't really an issue, but for others, it's a complete deal breaker. With their new Einstein light, they have tried to correct this issue.
One thing that really sets off the AB 'haters' is their owner/inventor and how they market their products. They list the power of their lights using 'effective Watt seconds', not just 'Watt seconds' like everyone else. There is a bunch of jargon they use to justify this...and it riles up a lot of people. I personally try to stay out of that argument.
Also, the owner/inventor used to be active on their on-site forum (and some other forums, I think) and he was prone to snapping and loosing his cool....to the point where they just shut down their forum for a long time.

So back to the point, you can get light that are in the same price & performance range as AB...and maybe avoid some of those issues. But that's up to you.
I personally own & use AB lights and while I do sometime wish I had top end studio lights, they have served me well...and their customer service has always been great.

*edit*
As Darrel has pointed out, there are better deals out there, for good quality lights etc.

 

[Derrel]

Adorama sells its own monolights, the Flashpoint brand. Their MP models are Multi-Power: both AC wall current, and DC battery power. The Flashpoint 320 MP costs $199 with a 15-ounce DC battery that will power the 150 watt-second 320 MP model for 180 full-power flashes. The monolight itself has been raised in price to $119, with free shipping, along with a free light stand. VERY low price. For a 150 watt-second 320 MP monolight, wither with or without the battery, the price is substantially lower than the AB 400 monolights, which are 160 watt-seconds. The Vagabond Mini is not just a battery, but a battery + pure sine wave inverter, and it weighs 56 ounces, and costs $240 alone. I covered all this in a post last week. The bottom line, as I see it, is that the Flashpoint monolights offer the most bang-for-buck at a price that beginners or occasional users can actually AFFORD a 3- or 4- or even 5-light setup, with accessories. Alien Bees cost significantly more money.

^^^^ My professor was saying the same thing about the Adorama Flashpoint lights, with high praise for them.

A few months ago, we had three TPF members buy Flashpoint monolight set-ups...one guy did some pretty good work with them--his first-EVER studio lighting gear. I was impressed by the quality of the PHOTOS he made with the Flashpoint lights. The Flashpoint monos have been sold by Adorama since the early 1990's, as I recall...maybe a bit longer...they are not promoted very well, if you ask me. Adorama does a very under the radar ad campaign for their lights....not sure why they do not hype the chit out of their every move, the way Paul C. BUff does with his Alien Bees lights...

 

[Leftyplayer]

Would 150w be enough? As someone who hasn't worked with lighting before, but the time I google and search, I end up thinking that 150w would be practically useless ... but then again, I am reading things from pros or people with different needs than I have, so it's hard to apply the information to myself since I'm yet to experiment for myself. 150w ok? or aim higher? How much does it matter? (I know these are amateur questions - but that's were I'm at with lighting : )

 

[Big Mike]

Realistically, for indoor (small space) work, 150 Ws is probably OK. It might be pushed to the limit in some situations but that will depend on how/what you shoot.

For outdoor (especially overpowering the sun), the more power the better. Off the top of my head, the AB B400 (160 Ws) is only $50 less than the B800, so it's a no-brainer to go for the more powerful B800 unit. I'm not as familiar with the Flashpoint stuff, but if you can afford something with more power, it might be a good idea to do just that.

Just as an example, my kit is two B800s and two B400s. (plus a pile of old, junkie stuff that I can use if really needed). 4 lights are a good set up for in-studio portraits etc. I could probably have gone with one powerful light (as my main light) and the other three could be less powerful, but sometimes it's nice to have these things in pairs.

 

[KmH]

Note that Mike used the tem Ws (watt/seconds) and not W (watts).

They two terms are not interchangeable, and 150 Ws is a lot more light power than 150 W is.

For some reason I can never remember what speedrings the Flashpoint lights are compatible with. It might be because it doesn't look like Adorama mentions that on their 320M page.

The Genesis 200 2-light kit is again on sale for $299.99. The Genesis lights are fan cooled and compatible with Elinchrom speedrings.

http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/product/calumet_genesis_200_2_light_kit/cf0502k1

 

[Leftyplayer]

The Genesis 200 (or even the 400) kit are appealing. My only concern is that it seems like the replacement parts would add up quickly compared to the AB flashtubes and modeling lights. I would hate to fall for the the "cheap printer, expensive cartridges" trick. I can't tell about the Flashpoint replacements, though, so not sure where they stand on that front.

Getting the two light kit (Genesis), including stands and umbrellas is appealing - but I worry that I would lose my savings with just a few accessory replacements.

Another consideration is that, from youtube videos, it seems the Genesis uses numbers 10-60 as it's power measures - how would that affect the learning process for a newb. This is not as strong a consideration, but I'm still wondering.

 

[Village Idiot]

The Genesis 200 (or even the 400) kit are appealing. My only concern is that it seems like the replacement parts would add up quickly compared to the AB flashtubes and modeling lights. I would hate to fall for the the "cheap printer, expensive cartridges" trick. I can't tell about the Flashpoint replacements, though, so not sure where they stand on that front.

Getting the two light kit (Genesis), including stands and umbrellas is appealing - but I worry that I would lose my savings with just a few accessory replacements.

Another consideration is that, from youtube videos, it seems the Genesis uses numbers 10-60 as it's power measures - how would that affect the learning process for a newb. This is not as strong a consideration, but I'm still wondering.

The bonus about the Genesis lights are that they use the Elinchrom mounting system, so it would give you a good upgrade option. You should check though, because if they're bi-voltage lights like the Elinchrome D-lites, they don't play well with batteries. Innovatronix is working on developing batteries that will work with multiple bi-voltage lights though.

 

[Big Mike]

Note that Mike used the tem Ws (watt/seconds) and not W (watts).

Also notice that I type it Ws or Watt seconds, not watt/seconds. If this was a mathematical equation (and it is) it's Watts x seconds, not watts over seconds. So it should never be written with a slash. Also notice that Watts is capitalized (named after James Watt) and seconds is not.
Sorry, sometimes I'm a stickler for details.

The Genesis 200 (or even the 400) kit are appealing. My only concern is that it seems like the replacement parts would add up quickly compared to the AB flashtubes and modeling lights. I would hate to fall for the the "cheap printer, expensive cartridges" trick. I can't tell about the Flashpoint replacements, though, so not sure where they stand on that front.

I wouldn't worry too much about replacement parts. Unless you are really rough with this things, the tube & bulbs will probably last many years. I'm not sure about the flashpoints, but modeling lights are usually household sockets, so you can put any bulb in there (as long as it's not rated higher than the lamp can take).
*I just looked, and they use a halogen modeling lamp. But it looks to have a standard knuckle thread socket. http://www.adorama.com/FPML1220.html

As for the power setting scale...don't worry about it. It could be in letters, Roman numerals or cat whiskers...you'll figure it out.

 

[sarconastic]

Have you taken a look at the new Menik Strobes? They have an SW-400 for around $150. Thye are not "PRO" lights but for the money for an amateur they do a pretty darn good job. The features they include for the money are pretty cool too.I have 3 of them I use, and they use a standard user replaceable flash tube. You might check them out.

Good Luck

Kevin

 

[Derrel]

Buy Flashpoint Speedrings / Adapters | Adorama, the Photography People

As one can see, speed rings for Flashpoints are VERY affordable...under $20 for most of the various mounts.

According to this review, the Flashpoints use the Photogenic PortaMaster accessory fitting. FlashPoint II Monolights Sophisticated Monolights at Bargain Prices - By Joe Farace

As far as the Genesis 200 two-light outfit for $299...that looks like a pretty good deal...the power "numbers" 10 to 60 seem to represent a 5-stop power adjustment, pretty standard.