Tripod: What should I look for in online shopping

[mathbias]

For these two lenses, I would be looking for a short slide or rail, that can set the camera's mount point from 2 to 4.5 inches behind the tripod's.
When I get a heavy telephoto lens, I'll likely need a different slide or rail anyway, so I don't think this purchase should plan for that yet.

I still don't understand the slide/rail descriptions well enough to make an informed choice. Some of it also depend on what I learn with the new tripod on Friday: How hard is it to lock in the elevation. That test before buying the slide would be with the heavier lens sagging down. But the scale of the problem would not be too different from the lighter lens set 4+ inches back and sagging to point upward. If the tripod is otherwise OK, but that sag is a problem, what does that change about what slide to buy and/or multiple parts. I think that would need an axis of rotation offset from the top of the tripod. I really have a poor understanding of how everything fits together.

Is it practical (with which slide or rail) to take the head off the tripod and put the slide between the tripod and the head to get the offset directly? I think the tripod I selected has a standard removable head, but the description was far from clear and that might be a reason to return it, if it doesn't have that AND it would have been practical to put some kind of slide between the tripod and a removable head.

 

[ac12]

First you need to balance the camera+lens
Get a long AS rail and secure it to the camera, going under the lens.
Then with a pencil under the rail, find where it balances.
This is for non-pano use.

Then you need to find the nodal point. That is on you, since I don't know how to do that.
That is where you secure the rail in the AS clamp.
If the nodal point it behind the camera, this will require adding weight to the back end of the rail, to counter balance the camera+lens.

BALANCE the camera+lens, both horizontally, and in elevation/depression.
The more you have/tilt the off-balanced camera+lens, the more strain you put on the elevation mechanism to hold it in place.
This is why you want a LONG AS rail, so that you can move the rail to balance the kit.
How long a rail you need will depend on your camera+lens, the amount of elevation/depression, the nodal point, and if you need to add a counter balance. IOW, you may have to try a few different lengths.

I cannot see how off-setting the head from the tripod will work.
You have simply move the vertical azimuth axis of the head, and not altered the balance of the camera+lens. And the nodal point is still the same distance from the vertical axis of the head.
You just have an off-balanced load on your tripod. Not a good thing.

 

[mathbias]

If I understand you correctly, your suggestion for pano is to set the rail so the pano axis is directly above the tripod and is the axis of rotation of the tripod head, then add a weight to the end of the rail to create balance.

While online info made me believe some other lenses would put the pano axis behind the sensor, my two lenses put it in front.

My heavier lens has the pano axis very near the balance point. So it would need only a little weight out front to get perfect balance, if I even need perfect balance. It also would use less of the rail length to get the pano right and have more rail leftover in front, and it is a 105mm, so it won't see the excess rail.

But my 28-70 zoom would be a problem. I need to move that 4+ inches back to get the pano right. Then if I was using a longer rail to counter balance, the rail would be in the shot.

Edit: Maybe it is plausible for 28 after all. More rough measurements show a rail could extend about 3 inches forward of the pano axis and still be out of the shot at 28. I just ordered a simple rail (used instead of the arca plate on the camera, rather than including a clamp to hold the arca plate) that is long enough to go 7+ inches forward of the camera's mount point, to attach to the tripod 4+ inches forward and then extend another 3. Camera and lighter lens are 34 ounces balanced a fraction of an inch forward of the camera mount point, about 4 inches behind the pano point. So a weight about 46 ounces attached below the tip of the 3 inch forward extension would balance it.

 

[mrca]

A tripod at home or in the car does nothing. One criteria I looked for that I rarely see mentioned is provision for a strap so it can be carried over the other shoulder counterbalancing the camera bag. It frees up your hands and makes it effortless to carry. Mine is a heavier unit, aluminum, head, RRS. This is the classic piece of gear that the adage buy once.

 

[ac12]

If I understand you correctly, your suggestion for pano is to set the rail so the pano axis is directly above the tripod and is the axis of rotation of the tripod head, then add a weight to the end of the rail to create balance.

While online info made me believe some other lenses would put the pano axis behind the sensor, my two lenses put it in front.

My heavier lens has the pano axis very near the balance point. So it would need only a little weight out front to get perfect balance, if I even need perfect balance. It also would use less of the rail length to get the pano right and have more rail leftover in front, and it is a 105mm, so it won't see the excess rail.

But my 28-70 zoom would be a problem. I need to move that 4+ inches back to get the pano right. Then if I was using a longer rail to counter balance, the rail would be in the shot.

Edit: Maybe it is plausible for 28 after all. More rough measurements show a rail could extend about 3 inches forward of the pano axis and still be out of the shot at 28. I just ordered a simple rail (used instead of the arca plate on the camera, rather than including a clamp to hold the arca plate) that is long enough to go 7+ inches forward of the camera's mount point, to attach to the tripod 4+ inches forward and then extend another 3. Camera and lighter lens are 34 ounces balanced a fraction of an inch forward of the camera mount point, about 4 inches behind the pano point. So a weight about 46 ounces attached below the tip of the 3 inch forward extension would balance it.

Yes, the pano axis / nodal point, is positioned directly above the tripod and head.
Then you balance the camera+lens+rail.
This only works for a range of elevation. Raise or lower the elevation more than that, and the nodal point move towards the tripod and the CG moved away from tripod, and you have to reposition and rebalance the setup.

For the 28-70, you could get creative and use a stepped rail, where the front section is lower than the back. That would keep it out of the image. But it complicates the rail construction.

 

[weepete]

@mathbias I'd get a tripod head that's acra swiss compatable, then get an acra swiss compatable nodal slide. If you add an arca swiss compatable L bracket you should be good. A leveling plate is a useful addition.

You shouldn't need to counterbalance your camera

 

[mathbias]

Raise or lower the elevation more than that, and

Maybe I'm not creative enough. But I haven't tried panoramas other than level.
As you describe putting it together, the axis of rotation would be vertical anyway. So aiming outside the horizontal plane would create a more distorted panorama.

If you add an arca swiss compatable L bracket you should be good. A leveling plate is a useful addition.

I tried to select an L bracket today on Amazon. I ran into lots that did not give enough measurements to know if they fit the configuration (or whether a second slide for side to side would be needed). Others had very long delivery times and/or other problems.

So I ordered something else that I think can fill in for an L bracket, a two hinged thing: the bottom segment can either go in the AS mount of the tripod head, or (more likely) be screwed to the rail. Top segment screws to the camera and I think the angle of the middle segment will provide the side to side adjust to keep the pano axis in the right place. That will give me no quick disconnect other than the rail mount to tripod, so I'd have a 7+ inch rail attached to the hinged thing attached to the camera.

The fairly cheap rail and hinged thing I ordered today will like be just a learning activity. When I have a better understanding combined with more patience for slower delivery, I'll likely get a more standard combination.

 

[Cincinnati]

I need a much better tripod, but I'm not sure of how much better, and I don't know which feature names fit the solutions to my existing issues.

Most of my issues are in smooth adjustment.

I have a Sunpack 6630LX tripod. It weighs just over 2 pounds. Light weight is great, but I expect I can't get decent features without going way up in weight, and I'd prefer function to light weight.

This one goes up to 66 inches. A few inches higher would be nice.

The overwhelming issue is adjustment. In each of three dimensions, fine adjustment is nearly impossible. Locking down the adjustment enough that it doesn't move on its own takes a fair amount of force, especially for the tilt (portrait vs. landscape dimension) and shooting angle up or down. But after loosening (for any of the three motions) actually adjusting is still pretty sticky and very hard to adjust a little. The whole structure flexes a bit elastically during adjustment. There is no practical way to release your firm grip before tightening in the new position, then as you let go, the amount it elastically returns can be a surprise. For the basic aim, unless I'm on very uneven ground, I find it easier to move the whole tripod than to adjust it.

5 seconds is plenty to damp out all motion when I let go after pressing the shutter, and it holds quite steady even in a moderate breeze. It is such a flimsy structure, I'm actually impressed it holds so well. But I need to have much less frustration in changing the exact direction in which it holds.

With my only point of reference this cheap and flimsy, I don't know how to compare features, such as ball joint vs. two separate hinge directions. What parts need to be metal and how do you tell online which parts are metal?

Mathias,

My philosophy is to always buy the best I can afford, especially if I am going to use the equipment regularly. But we all have to operate within a budget. I use a Really Right Stuff tripod, the heaviest I can get because the purpose of the tripod is to hold the camera absolutely still. But I do also have a Gitzo Traveler for those times when need a backpack sized tripod. I am placing $4000 - $8000 of glass on it and I don’t give a second thought about $1200-$2500 on a tripod.

The newer Carbon-Fiber units are a good compromise between strength and weight.

Go with as much as you can budget. Also buy the highest quality head you can Afford. I look for smoothness, and ease of leveling. These typically have large knobs So it’s easy to make camera adjustments; it only requires light pressure to achieve full tension on the locking knobs. I’d also choose one that lowers to ground level as opposed to a reversible center column Requiring you to work upside down.

RRS makes a leveling base that I would not be without. Hope this helps.

 

[jeffashman]

FWIW, I have a Joilcan 81" and it suits me very well. It's relatively lightweight aluminum, with a ball head and swiss mount, and it's fairly stable. I use the Canon camera app as the shutter release when I have the camera on the tripod, so there is no risk of movement. It has levels, and is fairly easy to maniupulate. Down side is that it takes practice to move it around on the ball, but for me it works well.

 

[weepete]

I tried to select an L bracket today on Amazon. I ran into lots that did not give enough measurements to know if they fit the configuration (or whether a second slide for side to side would be needed). Others had very long delivery times and/or other problems.

So I ordered something else that I think can fill in for an L bracket, a two hinged thing: the bottom segment can either go in the AS mount of the tripod head, or (more likely) be screwed to the rail. Top segment screws to the camera and I think the angle of the middle segment will provide the side to side adjust to keep the pano axis in the right place. That will give me no quick disconnect other than the rail mount to tripod, so I'd have a 7+ inch rail attached to the hinged thing attached to the camera.

The fairly cheap rail and hinged thing I ordered today will like be just a learning activity. When I have a better understanding combined with more patience for slower delivery, I'll likely get a more standard combination.

If you are going to build one youself, I'd suggest a lockable QR plate, nodal slide (with a built in QR) then an L bracket. That's what I use and I've found it very effective and compact. Your camera can then attach to the nodal slide with the L plate. I think I posted a photo of my setup in one of your other threads, but the main benifit is it keeps the cantilever small.

I prefer the camera spesific L brackets, as they usually allow access to your ports on the side of the camera without removal. I've also maked the centre of the camera on mine so I have a quick reference when it's on my camera. The L Bracket should give enough movement to centre the camera in the setup I've described, without an additional slide.

In addition to a levelling base, I also use an indexing rotator. It's not totally necessary but I find it a useful addition.

 

[mathbias]

Two of the ordered tripod accessories just arrived. I tried them on my old tripod right before the delivery estimate on the new tripod improved from Friday to within 2 hours.
On my old tripod (without some silly kludge) only the center point of the rail can mount to the tripod, so it doesn't quite solve the pano requirement for the lighter lens.
I ordered an extra AS clamp, which I think will solve the awkwardness of connecting and disconnecting the camera from the substitute for L bracket. But the delivery estimate for that hasn't improved.
I'll need some testing with the new (hopefully firm enough) tripod to see if this two-hinged device is firm enough for practical use.

 

[mathbias]

Do you know the use of the extra part pictured below (sorry about all the crappy photos taken quickly with my older Camera)?

My new Victiv AT26 tripod is so far pretty good. It is a big step up from my Sunpak 6630, especially the ability to turn around the vertical axis smoothly and easily while everything else is locked tight. I very precisely aligned my 28-70 lens for panorama. I was not super careful with the alignment of the camera to the folding L bracket, nor the alignment of that L bracket to the rail. Then I adjusted the tripod ball for tilt and elevation to level using the camera's internal level. I expect that is the reason the tripod's level says it isn't while the camera says it is. Without a counterweight, that ball adjustment for perfect level was tricky (though far easier than with my Sunpak). I'll try with a weight later.

The folding L folds flat easily without needing to disconnect anything (and I even have things adjusted so that it folds centered). So it is super easy to switch from portrait to landscape. Switching back is a bit harder when I need to get perfect centering (slight tilt of the middle segment) for a portrait panorama. But it is easy for non pano portrait and reasonable for pano portrait (as compared to leaving the folding L rigid set for pano portrait and disconnecting it for landscape). When the part arrives, I plan to insert an extra AS layer between the camera and the L, which will change the tilt needed for centering. Then head to rail will be QR and L to camera will be QR (L to rail not QR).

This first photo unfortunately gives the illusion that the system is badly strained under the unbalanced load. But actually that is just due to the imperfect alignment of the camera to the L bracket.

It came with these loose parts. The AS parts I understand. One will be used after the AS clamp I ordered arrives, or would be used if I leave out the rail and L bracket. The other is a spare. Online complaints about this tripod say they didn't notice the things that need to be tightened with these hex keys until after it was too late. It is certainly not obvious what needs the hex keys, but I'll figure it out.

The part I have no clue about is that tube. It is threaded 3/8 female at both ends, fitting that other loose piece (double 3/8 male with 1/4 male end). Part of the head (I forget details since I only had the head off for a moment) is held together with a copy of that same 3/8, 3/8, 1/4 screw. So the unknown tube likely needs that screw, but the screw could easily be useful on its own. Looks like it could be part of the monopod configuration (that I'll likely never try) but the instructions for the switch to monopod don't use or show it.

Also, on those hex keys, why do the two AS parts have tiny hex screws that don't turn with moderate force (feel like they're glued in) and don't seem to be holding anything?

 

[ac12]

Do you know the use of the extra part pictured below (sorry about all the crappy photos taken quickly with my older Camera)?

My new Victiv AT26 tripod is so far pretty good. It is a big step up from my Sunpak 6630, especially the ability to turn around the vertical axis smoothly and easily while everything else is locked tight. I very precisely aligned my 28-70 lens for panorama. I was not super careful with the alignment of the camera to the folding L bracket, nor the alignment of that L bracket to the rail. Then I adjusted the tripod ball for tilt and elevation to level using the camera's internal level. I expect that is the reason the tripod's level says it isn't while the camera says it is. Without a counterweight, that ball adjustment for perfect level was tricky (though far easier than with my Sunpak). I'll try with a weight later.

The folding L folds flat easily without needing to disconnect anything (and I even have things adjusted so that it folds centered). So it is super easy to switch from portrait to landscape. Switching back is a bit harder when I need to get perfect centering (slight tilt of the middle segment) for a portrait panorama. But it is easy for non pano portrait and reasonable for pano portrait (as compared to leaving the folding L rigid set for pano portrait and disconnecting it for landscape). When the part arrives, I plan to insert an extra AS layer between the camera and the L, which will change the tilt needed for centering. Then head to rail will be QR and L to camera will be QR (L to rail not QR).

This first photo unfortunately gives the illusion that the system is badly strained under the unbalanced load. But actually that is just due to the imperfect alignment of the camera to the L bracket.
View attachment 251857View attachment 251858View attachment 251859View attachment 251860

It came with these loose parts. The AS parts I understand. One will be used after the AS clamp I ordered arrives, or would be used if I leave out the rail and L bracket. The other is a spare. Online complaints about this tripod say they didn't notice the things that need to be tightened with these hex keys until after it was too late. It is certainly not obvious what needs the hex keys, but I'll figure it out.

The part I have no clue about is that tube. It is threaded 3/8 female at both ends, fitting that other loose piece (double 3/8 male with 1/4 male end). Part of the head (I forget details since I only had the head off for a moment) is held together with a copy of that same 3/8, 3/8, 1/4 screw. So the unknown tube likely needs that screw, but the screw could easily be useful on its own. Looks like it could be part of the monopod configuration (that I'll likely never try) but the instructions for the switch to monopod don't use or show it.

Also, on those hex keys, why do the two AS parts have tiny hex screws that don't turn with moderate force (feel like they're glued in) and don't seem to be holding anything?

View attachment 251861View attachment 251863

The two hex screws on the bottom of the AS plate are "safety" screws.
They prevent the rail from sliding out of a loose clamp, by hitting the side of the clamp and not letting the rail slide all the way out.

That "tube" could be a short center column, for when you lower the tripod LOW to the ground.
See if it fits when you remove the center column.

 

[weepete]

Yeah, ac12 is right. The hex screws are stops so the slide doesn't accidentally slide out of the QR plate.

The cylinder is a short centre column in case you want to shoot with the tripod flat, and the screw is a 3/8" to 1/4" adapter for the centre column.

 

[mathbias]

Yes, that tube does fit as a replacement for the entire center column.