Need help with a major upgrade.. (MP-E 65mm? Canon 5d or 7d?)

[sniperbob13]

Hey guys, I think I've come to the right place for advice. Makes it so much easier with all this hands on knowledge in one place compared to googling forever.
I have been messing around with this hobby for a few years. I recently have not been into it as much do to the lack of quality in my equipment, all I have currently is my 5mp droid because I lost the cord to my 8mp kodak before I left for this deployment. Even when I could get a charge on the kodak I always had a problem shooting insects which are my main focus along with other nature, It would take me forever to get a good shot of the smaller insects. So now that I am making decent money over here I started to research equipment for the subjects I tend to focus on and that's how I found this great forum.
I knew I would need a good macro lens so that's what I started with. As of right now I am thinking about getting a canon MP-E 65mm lens and a canon 5d or 7d. I was hoping you guys could tell me more about this lens and which of these cameras you prefer. I am open to other suggestions though. I know how costly this equipment is and that there is most likely a learning curve when jumping from a $150 kodak to a camera of this quality, but I will be spending a lot of time using it so I'd rather go big now than upgrade later.

 

[mjhoward]

The MP-E is an excellent Macro lens. It is the only kind like it really. You can get 5x magnification without the addition of tubes. For the work you're interested in, I would actually go with the 7D over the Full Frame 5D for the working distance and DOF advantages. In addition to these two things, I would highly recommend some sort of speedlight with a good diffuser. With that kind of magnification and working distance, your DOF is going to be razor thin and you are going to want to stop down quite a bit. Because of this you're going to need to add light (OCF will add many other benefits too).

 

[WesternGuy]

As mjhoward says, the MP-E 65mm is an excellent lens, but are you aware that it only has manual focus - not a problem necessarily, but thought I would mention it. I cannot comment on its IQ and other working features, because I have never used it. My current macro gear consists of a 100mm F2.8L IS USM (which probably gets most of the usage for macros) and a 180mm f3.5L USM which both fit my 5D. As far as which camera is better for use with a macro - it is really your choice - I have the 5D and haven't had any problems at all with it - the IQ is great and I can hardly wait for the 5D Mk III to come along, but as mjhoward has said, there are advantages to the 7D as well and it is a newer camera with newer technology. It really boils down, in my opinion, as to whether or not you want full-frame. If you do want FF, then why not go with the 5D Mk II? As far as the learning curve goes, you might want to look at the Magic Lantern Guide series and the Digital Field Guide series - there is one of each series for each of the cameras you are looking at - they are sort of like a Super User's Guide. I have both for my 5D and find I use the Digital Field Guide more than the Magic Lantern guide and I hardly ever go back to my original User's Manual. My 0.02¢.

Cheers,

WesternGuy

 

[Overread]

The Canon MPE 65mm macro lens isn't just a macro lens, its only a macro lens. The lens itself cannot focus on anything further than around 6cms or so in front of the lens and goes from the magnifiaction of 1:1 (the maximum that regular macro lenses achieve) down to 5:1 (5 times life size, which is bringing you well into the magnifications for springtails and the like).

It's also one of the hardest lenses to learn to use, let alone use well and its not the kind of lens I recommend to beginners unless they have a very specific requirement that simply can't be done otherwise (and also a clear indication that, not matter the difficulty, they will work on getting the shots). It's one of those lenses that is rare and even in macro circles its not the most commonly owned lens.

As a starting point I'd suggest a regular macro lens, Canon, Sigma, Tokina, Tramon - any brand will do (optically they are all on an even footing with regard to macro photography) so its a case of fitting your needs and criteria and budget against what they offer you. These regular macro lenses will retain focus from infinity all the way to the 1:1 magnification. You can also use attachments to increase this magnification (normally at a loss of infinity focus) should you wish to experiment with higher magnifications.

Examples of lenses you can consider:
Canon 100mm f2.8 macro - 100mm f2.8 IS L macro - 180mm f3.5 L macro (note the canon 50mm macro is not a true macro lens unless used with its lifesize converter - at which point you've spent more than most all in one macro lenses so is generally not recommended.
Canon EFS 60mm 2.8 macro (EFS means it only works on the 7D and other crop sensors and won't fit fullframe bodies like the 5D)

Sigma 50mm f2.8 macro, 70mm f2.8 macro, 105mm f2.8 macro (OS edition now released), Sigma 150mm f2.8 OS macro (original version without OS discontinued but still on the market second hand and worth considering), Sigma 180mm f3.5 macro (discontinued but still top rate and in the second hand market)

Tokina 100mm f2.8 macro

Tamron 60mm f2 macro; 105mm f2.8 macro; 180mm f3.5 macro

Note some of the 3rd party options are crop sensor only as well, but I'm not sure on the specifics of all of them. Each of those lenses would give you 1:1 magnification with quality results; however they'll each have their own differences such as different focusing systems; compatibilities with teleconverters; internal focusing etc... So its good to read up on them adn compare and contrast what they are each offering you.
For insects 90mm or longer is the advised starting point just to give you more distance between the subject and the camera when at the 1:1 distance to lessen the chances of spooking the subjects. Note that the framing at 1:1 will be the same for all the listed cameras, what the focal length changes for macro is the distances, where longer focal length lenses give more distance between camera and subject as compared to shorter focal length macro lenses.


Also note that one can easily use a regular macro lens and the MPE alongside each other, the lack of greater than 1:1 magnification on the MPE means that for whole photos of larger insects like butterflies, dragonflies and the like is impossible, so a regular macro lens retains its use.

My all means if you feel that you need the magnification of the MPE go for it, but if not and then I'd work up toward it. Its not just focusing but also lighting that gets more critical with the MPE, and as stated you'll want to keep part of your budget for lighting.


Lighting wise you don't have to go overboard with complex macro setups - a single speedlite flash (such as a 430EXII or 580EXII) combined with a softbox (Lumiquest original softbox or homemade) and a bracket (RAM mount is the best I've come across - more details in this link here:
My very flexible Macro flashbracket: Studio & Lighting Technique Forum: Digital Photography Review
That can provide more than enough good quality lighting for macro from 1:1 all the way to 5:1. Furthermore I encourage people to get a regular speedlite (like those listed above) as a first flash because, unlike the weaker, more specific macro flashes, a good speedlite unit retains its uses not just for macro photography, but for pretty much any field of interest with photography. Giving you a device that will have a lot of potential use for you and a good starting point for flash controlled/aided lighting.



Just to finish I'll give you a few examples to bring 1:1 and 5:1 magnifications more into the real world with what you can expect. These are taken on a crop sensor DSLR which, whilst the magnification remains the same, due to the nature of crop sensor if you print out from crop and fullframe next to each other the crops appear to have more magnification.

1:1 of a hoverfly:

1:1 of a UK 2p coin

3:1 of the same coin

5:1 of the same coin

As a final point regarding fullframe and crop sensor this is really an iffy area - neither one is the "best" choice and each has its advantages and downsides. I'd advise considering your uses outside of macro and also testing out the two cameras in a shop to get a feel for their differences in how they perform (since real world testing is the only way to get a real idea to yourself of the differences). Note you might well not find many shops with the MPE to test and few willing to order it in just to test.

 

[sniperbob13]

Thanks for all the help/advice.
I guess I have plenty of time to make up my mind, and actually think about what I need. I know I am going to have a lot of time for my main hobbies (fishing, metal detecting, photography). I was going to order it all so it would be home by the time I got back, but I guess I can hold off on the excitement and wait so I can test them out first.
As of right now I am leaning towards the 7d. For a lens I will probably go with a regular macro lens for now after reading your posts, Then eventually go for the mp-e. A flash that works good with macro and everything else is what I need. I will just continue to sift through all this information until I can make up my mind.

 

[DiskoJoe]

5d markII and the 7d are both nice cameras. but 5d is more of a portrait motor where as the 7d is more for action. both would do macro fine. as far as lenses i would recommend this much cheaper and more useful lens:

Sigma 105mm f/2.8 EX Macro Camera Lens for Canon EF | eBay

can be used for macro or portraits and lots of other situations.

 

[GooniesNeverSayDie11]

In terms of the 5D or the 7D. I would choose based on how large you wanted to make your prints. If you want to print as large as possible, get the 5D. The 7D will provide more magnification and better focus when not shooting macro ( which is usually manual focus anyway ) . I personally think the MP-E 65mm is overkill if you simply enjoy shooting bugs. I would go with just a normal true macro. I have heard that the Sigma 150mm is great and is a good distance for bugs. You can also shoot other things with it, unlike the MP-E. No matter what you get, be forewarned, its going to take a while to really grasp it, so be prepared and learn as much as you can. Also, I would invest in Photoshop Lightroom or better yet Photoshop CS5. ( This will also have a steep learning curve. ) If you are prepared to drop $3000 or so on a setup, you should take full advantage of it by properly processing the images.

 

[sniperbob13]

I think I am definitely going with a regular macro when I do buy a setup.. Just got offered to extend and go on another deployment so I might not even buy anything for another year or so. I will just continue to read up on different equipment until I get back so then I know I will have the best setup for me. You made me realize i have a lot more to consider.
And as far as the photo shop goes I managed to find CS5 for 15 bucks here at a Ali shop.

 

[DiskoJoe]

$15. GEESH. i need some of that action.

 

[GooniesNeverSayDie11]

$15. GEESH. i need some of that action.

I prefer $600 without the chance of getting blown up.

 

[bazooka]

OoooOOoooo, did someone say metal detecting?? I was big into it a few years ago... now a days I mostly just do volunteer work for lostmystuff.net, but if you're interested, I kept a blog of about 5 years worth of detecting experiences and finds. The forum isn't as popular as it once was either, but if you get bored.... www.dirtjournal.com .

 

[GooniesNeverSayDie11]

OoooOOoooo, did someone say metal detecting?? I was big into it a few years ago... now a days I mostly just do volunteer work for lostmystuff.net, but if you're interested, I kept a blog of about 5 years worth of detecting experiences and finds. The forum isn't as popular as it once was either, but if you get bored.... www.dirtjournal.com .

Whats the most expensive thing you found?

 

[Hardrock]

I personally think the 5dmkii would be the better choice of the 2 for macro as long as you are talking about the mkii version and not the mki. It has a cleaner high ISO and will allow for better detail with cropping. You will lose a little working distance with the full frame. I find it very difficult to take pictures of insects in the field using a tripod so I shoot handheld and rely on higher iso and flash. I think you would benifit more from a more common 1:1 macro lens like a 100,150 or 180mm lens. Once you are use to the working distance , dof , and other macro issues then venture to the mpe 65. I use the 7d with a canon 100mm f2.8 usm and 300 f4 for macro and love both of those lens. And a side note the longer the lens the easier it is to blow out the background. I did not read all the other replys but Im sure they have some great insight as well. Hope this helps.

 

[sniperbob13]

Thanks hardrock I will check it out. Is there a 5d mkiii coming out, I thought I read something on here about it but I'm not sure. I am just going to by the most expensive equipment I can afford that will do the job I want it to do.
Oh and i didn't even have to buy the photoshop, someone here bought it and it has all the CS5 programs on it, some I never even heard of...
And as far as the metal detecting goes.. I have been interested in that hobby for years, and decided to buy a GARRET ACE 250 (highly recommended) 2 months before I left and I managed to make some great finds.
My best finds were a 1941 nickel (almost a war nickel ...) a few Indian head pennies and a few other things..
But the absolute best thing I have ever found and probably will ever find is this....

You can't really tell what it is from the picture but it is a 1863 civil war token. The cool thing is that it is for a company in downtown Cincinnati and I found it about 2 minutes from my house(in cincinnati) so it was cool to have something in my hands that another soldier lost over a hundred years ago. From what I gathered these were handed out to the civil war soldiers and were turned in for guns and such. My heart just about jumped out of my chest when I pulled it from it's 3 inch hole lol...
I had a link of what it will look like once the olive oil does it's magic but the picture isn't on there any more.
(1863 CIVIL WAR TOKEN - B. KITTREDGE & CO. - CINCINNATI - GUNS, PISTOLS, MILITARY GOODS)