OCF for weddings?

[Tbini87]

Hey guys,
I have been working on using OCF and have recently picked up a stand and umbrella to go with an SB-600 and radio triggers. I have been researching and reading a lot of David Ziser's stuff, and he seems to exclusively use a Quantum flash on a monopod (with shoot-through umbrella) held by his assistant during weddings. I was wondering if an SB-600 would be powerful enough to try to mimic this type of maneuverability? Seems like a great way to get OCF in all different types of scenarios. What are other wedding photogs doing?

 

[Patrice]

Why don't you try and see? You have the flash and you have the umbrella, get a willing model and experiment.

SB600 is not really very powerful so you might encounter some limits, especially outdoors or in a large venue.

 

[KmH]

Explore what GN numbers are all about.

Guide number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tbini87]

Why don't you try and see? You have the flash and you have the umbrella, get a willing model and experiment.

SB600 is not really very powerful so you might encounter some limits, especially outdoors or in a large venue.

Well I am sure it will work with a single model. I am more worried about lighting larger groups, or the B&G from further distances like during first dance, tosses, etc. I was trying to compare something like the flash Ziser uses to a speedlight but couldn't really figure it out. I will now be looking at GN numbers.

 

[Tbini87]

Explore what GN numbers are all about.

Guide number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks for the link. I Couldn't quite digest the Wiki explanation all that well. It seemed to be worded oddly, and jumped around a lot. I will look for some other info on GN though, I am sure it is all over the place.

Rockwell's site say the SB-600 has a GN of about 100 feet, and the SB-800 has a GN of 125 feet. Is that saying that at full power the flash could fully illuminate a subject from 100 or 125 feet away? I am sure shooting through an umbrella will eat up a lot of that light, but I don't think we would be using the OCF from further than maybe 30ish feet, so maybe it would work. I probably still don't even know the basic parts of GN but will keep looking around and trying to digest it. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Big Mike]

The GN has to do with the distance and the aperture. So with a GN of 100 feet, if you used an aperture of F10, your working distance is 10 feet.

If you shoot with wide apertures and/or use a higher ISO, you can get a lot more exposure out of your flash, but that also gives you a lot more ambient exposure. So in a situation where you want to limit the ambient exposure by using a smaller aperture and low ISO, you will need a whole lot of flash power. You may often hear us talking about competing with sunlight, or something like that...and that's where you need a lot of flash power.

If you are going to be shooting weddings, you will need a few flashes anyway. It would probably be best to get more powerful units like the SB900.

 

[Light Artisan]

I'd also check into the Nissin Di866, it's priced where the SB700 is but does about 90% of what the SB-900 does, plus some things the SB-900 doesn't do.

 

[Tbini87]

The GN has to do with the distance and the aperture. So with a GN of 100 feet, if you used an aperture of F10, your working distance is 10 feet.

If you shoot with wide apertures and/or use a higher ISO, you can get a lot more exposure out of your flash, but that also gives you a lot more ambient exposure. So in a situation where you want to limit the ambient exposure by using a smaller aperture and low ISO, you will need a whole lot of flash power. You may often hear us talking about competing with sunlight, or something like that...and that's where you need a lot of flash power.

If you are going to be shooting weddings, you will need a few flashes anyway. It would probably be best to get more powerful units like the SB900.

Hey Mike,
I guess my question is what are people doing for lighting when shooting weddings? Ziser seems to always have a Quantum on a stand and has a shoot through umbrella. Could a SB600 or SB900 do the same type thing on a stand? They would eat up batteries (using eneloops) but wouldn't require the additional battery pack to carry around. I would probably be the one carrying the flash while my wife does the shooting. However, I just don't know that an SB600 would have enough pop in general.

I have been looking into picking up another speedlight, so that we would each have one for say the reception. It would also be nice to have another light for more creative lighting choices with portraits. I have also been thinking about somehow rigging up 2 SB-600s together and shooting through the same umbrella when needed, then can each throw one on camera for reception.

We obviously still have a ton of learning, and figuring out how we want to do things. We have a few more months of practice before shooting a wedding for a friend who just wants super basic coverage for a small and short wedding.

 

[Tbini87]

I'd also check into the Nissin Di866, it's priced where the SB700 is but does about 90% of what the SB-900 does, plus some things the SB-900 doesn't do.

Thanks for the recommendation. I have been looking into different lighting options, but the 800 and 900 are so expensive!

 

[IgsEMT]

To add to all above...
Using OCF or not you also have to remember what your ambient light looks like. Outdoors you have sun who'll fill your background, but indoors incandescent light that is in more Halls/Restaurants doesn't add usually to the picture.
For me, a lot depends on the job: for some I'll take my room lights. For others, on-camera flash and off-camera flash would be MORE then enough. All depends on what you want to get.
By the way, my on-camera is SB900 and off-cameras are SB800s and sb600 - again, depending on when and what I'm shooting by there are times when I won't be able to use my ABs. Enelopes are great batteries! THey last me on both flash units for job and half (estimate b/n 800-1000 frames per average job).

 

[Tbini87]

To add to all above...
Using OCF or not you also have to remember what your ambient light looks like. Outdoors you have sun who'll fill your background, but indoors incandescent light that is in more Halls/Restaurants doesn't add usually to the picture.
For me, a lot depends on the job: for some I'll take my room lights. For others, on-camera flash and off-camera flash would be MORE then enough. All depends on what you want to get.
By the way, my on-camera is SB900 and off-cameras are SB800s and sb600 - again, depending on when and what I'm shooting by there are times when I won't be able to use my ABs. Enelopes are great batteries! THey last me on both flash units for job and half (estimate b/n 800-1000 frames per average job).

I think ideally we would be shooting outdoors in open shade. However, I am trying to think more of situations that are far from ideal. Those are what we will need the most practice in. So probably along the lines of indoor reception with pretty poor lighting. Maybe also bad weather and have to shoot the formal family and wedding party shots in the church instead of outdoors.

Right now we have 2 D90s with an 80-200 2.8 and 17-55 2.8. I was hoping that this could help us get away with not needing much flash at all, but I think we would probably need to upgrade to the 7000 or even 700 and some VR lenses before not using flash.

When shooting the reception are you using OCF or mostly sticking to the SB-900 on the camera?

 

[KmH]

How are you at basic algebra?

This equation from that Wikipedia page

GN = distance × f-number

is everything you need.
Knowing your light's GN number, you can easily calculate, distance, and/or aperture.Just re-write the equation to solve for the unknowns.
With a little practice, you can even do it in your head.

 

[IgsEMT]

D90 is a great amera but is not a primary weding camera. Same goes for d7000. You can use nikowireless to set off lights but ull be limited to line of sight. Thus ur upgrade shouuld b @ least d3xx/s or d200.
dring reception, I'm on the ladder, ABs are baclights, while sb800 ocf and 900 on camera.

 

[Tbini87]

D90 is a great amera but is not a primary weding camera. Same goes for d7000. You can use nikowireless to set off lights but ull be limited to line of sight. Thus ur upgrade shouuld b @ least d3xx/s or d200.
dring reception, I'm on the ladder, ABs are baclights, while sb800 ocf and 900 on camera.

We would love to upgrade bodies but buying glass has wiped us out! We have cactus triggers... but when we use them we can't use a flash on the camera because the transmitter goes in the hotshoe mount on camera.

When shooting a wedding do you have a 2 or 3 person team? It seems like setting up backlights, an sb800 off camera, and using a flash on camera would be really cumbersome and time consuming. We will only have two people... So first thought was get flash off camera for formal shots with wedding party and family members. Once we wrap those shots up probably get the flashes on camera for the reception to make it easy to move around. The other option would be me carrying a flash off camera on a stand with an umbrella while my wife shoots (this is what Ziser does and got me thinking about it).

We haven't shot a wedding yet so I don't really know what to expect. We will probably try to go without flash at all during the ceremony. Then OCF for formal shots, then speedlights on camera for reception. We are obviously open for suggestions and will be changing our strategy as we gain experience and learn what does and doesn't work.

 

[IgsEMT]

We would love to upgrade bodies but buying glass has wiped us out! We have cactus triggers... but when we use them we can't use a flash on the camera because the transmitter goes in the hotshoe mount on camera.

When shooting a wedding do you have a 2 or 3 person team? It seems like setting up backlights, an sb800 off camera, and using a flash on camera would be really cumbersome and time consuming. We will only have two people... So first thought was get flash off camera for formal shots with wedding party and family members. Once we wrap those shots up probably get the flashes on camera for the reception to make it easy to move around. The other option would be me carrying a flash off camera on a stand with an umbrella while my wife shoots (this is what Ziser does and got me thinking about it).

We haven't shot a wedding yet so I don't really know what to expect. We will probably try to go without flash at all during the ceremony. Then OCF for formal shots, then speedlights on camera for reception. We are obviously open for suggestions and will be changing our strategy as we gain experience and learn what does and doesn't work.

There are some radio transmitters that can be screwed on to the lightstand and have hotshoe for flash units. Look for those on ebay.

Quality takes time. If you want to provide quality product, take your time to set it up and do the job. You can get away with basics, but it'll catch up to you and when it does it has a tendency to bite you in the ass harder then expected.

PM me, we'll talk more about it.