outdated b&w film for beginners

[naptime]

i'm wondering what the thoughts are on outdated film?

obviously, imo the expiration is there for a reason, just as it is for food. but often times, many items can be used well past their date, albeit, not always with great success.

i would never consider using outdated film on something where it counted... but what about when you are a stone cold beginner? i mean BEGINNER!!


i am actually a screen printer. but getting started in photography with my 16 year old daughter, who is on her way to being a graphics artist / photographer.

i decided we would learn the old fashioned way.... with film. starting with black & white.


now i discover to minor problems....

i can't find b&w film at an affordable price locally... and even if i could, i can not find b&w processing locally. everyone sends it out.

so, we are going to also learn to process at home, and then just get prints of the shots we choose. since, assumabley, we'll be lucky to get a few good shots per roll anyway.

i hate the idea of film and development costs in a digital age. but i felt this was the best choice for starting on a budget and ensuring we are both GOING to learn, before investing in higher quality digital bodies and lenses.

so anyway, back on subject...

given that we are absolute beginners, and assumabley we'll have a lot of wasted shots, is there any reason we should NOT use expired film to start?

i ask because the website i am ordering the processing gear, has some pretty attractive prices on outdated b&w film.

thanks

 

[tirediron]

Personally, I'm not sure that I think this is the best idea, because if things don't turn out, you may not know if was your error, or the the fact that the film was out-dated. I would think that Wal-mart and similar stores would carry at least Kodak Tri-X, and any half-way decent camera store, should have Ilford FP4 and HP5, all of which are fairly forgiving films. Once you're confident of the basics, then you can move on to playing with the expired stuff for practice, but initially, I would stay with something that will give you consistant results.

 

[naptime]

Personally, I'm not sure that I think this is the best idea, because if things don't turn out, you may not know if was your error, or the the fact that the film was out-dated. I would think that Wal-mart and similar stores would carry at least Kodak Tri-X, and any half-way decent camera store, should have Ilford FP4 and HP5, all of which are fairly forgiving films. Once you're confident of the basics, then you can move on to playing with the expired stuff for practice, but initially, I would stay with something that will give you consistant results.

our Walmart doesn't neither does Meijer, or Walgreens, or Rite Aid... heck, i couldn't even find old stuff in the dollar stores. all i can find is 200/400/800 film. Walmart seems to ONLY carry Fuji, in those three speeds, and nothing else.

however, i have not checked any legitimate camera stores yet, because they are all on the other side of town.


so, i see your point about not knowing whether a problem was from us or from the film.

i had not considered that, as i don't know what problems old film presents. or why film has an expiration.

thanks

 

[Josh66]

Try to find out what the storage conditions were. If it has been cold stored (you'll be wanting to set aside some space in your freezer ) you can pretty much forget about the expiration date.

B&W film lasts for a very long time. Usually, it would have to be something like 15 or 20 years past it's expiration date before you have to worry. For slow film (25 or 50 ISO), it's even longer. Manufactures sometimes don't even give an expiration date for these films...

Fast films, like 800 or higher ISO, you will encounter issues sooner - but it'll still be a long time.


Color film, on the other hand, after a couple years past the expiration date you will have some color shifts. Some people like this effect and actually seek out expired film... Cold storage will extend the life of the film considerably.



As far as developing costs - you'll save a lot of money by doing it yourself. The biggest hit to the wallet will be buying all the 'stuff' you need. Changing bag (or a completely dark room), tank, reels, containers to keep chemicals in, a thermometer, measuring vessels, all of that 'stuff'... Once you have that, all you need is the chemicals, which are pretty cheap.

You will need a developer, a fixer, a stop bath, and a wetting agent for the final rinse. Fixer & stop bath can be reused for a long time. Just off the top of my head, figure $10 for each. So, $40 for chemicals. The wetting agent (I use Photo Flo) will probably last for at least a year unless you're developing a ton of film... The fixer & stop bath will also last for six months to a year. Depending on what developer you use, and how much you shoot, that will also last for quite a while. It sounds like a lot of money at first, but you hardly ever have to replace the stuff so it's very cheap in the long run.

Sending film out is much more expensive. 20 rolls (maybe less) is probably pretty close to the break even point. With current prices, for what you would pay to develop 20 rolls by sending them to a lab you could buy everything you need to do it yourself.

 

[tirediron]

If the film has been kept in cool, dry storage, it can last for years beyond it's expiration date, however, like any other chemical (It's essentially silver halide suspended in gelatin which form the emulsion or light-sensitive layer applied to a plastic substrate). Over time, the chemical compound begin to break down and if the film has not been stored well you can see problems such as fogging (Light leaks), failure to feed (when it has been stored for a long time in adverse conditions, some of the substrtes become very brittle, although this isn't terribly common with newer films) or reduced sensitivity to light.

I would just grab a few rolls of whatever colour print film is easiest to start. Use those to learn the camera, get a grasp on exposure and so forth, though to be honest, I nice digital SLR such as a D7000 is, IMO, a far better way to go.

 

[Josh66]

For B&W film, drug stores like CVS or Walgreen's are usually the only place that still carries it (not counting actual camera stores). Around here anyway...

I buy most of mine online.

Freestyle Photographic Supplies - Traditional Black & White Film, Paper, Chemicals, Holgas and ULF

B&H also has a good selection with decent prices:
Roll Film

 

[Proteus617]

Freestyle has some great film re-badged as a house brand for dirt cheap. Start prowling around ebay for a a steel tank and 2 reels. Also, give serious thought to a film scanner. Getting started does not need to be expensive.

 

[naptime]

Try to find out what the storage conditions were. If it has been cold stored (you'll be wanting to set aside some space in your freezer ) you can pretty much forget about the expiration date.

B&W film lasts for a very long time. Usually, it would have to be something like 15 or 20 years past it's expiration date before you have to worry. For slow film (25 or 50 ISO), it's even longer. Manufactures sometimes don't even give an expiration date for these films...

Fast films, like 800 or higher ISO, you will encounter issues sooner - but it'll still be a long time.


Color film, on the other hand, after a couple years past the expiration date you will have some color shifts. Some people like this effect and actually seek out expired film... Cold storage will extend the life of the film considerably.



As far as developing costs - you'll save a lot of money by doing it yourself. The biggest hit to the wallet will be buying all the 'stuff' you need. Changing bag (or a completely dark room), tank, reels, containers to keep chemicals in, a thermometer, measuring vessels, all of that 'stuff'... Once you have that, all you need is the chemicals, which are pretty cheap.

You will need a developer, a fixer, a stop bath, and a wetting agent for the final rinse. Fixer & stop bath can be reused for a long time. Just off the top of my head, figure $10 for each. So, $40 for chemicals. The wetting agent (I use Photo Flo) will probably last for at least a year unless you're developing a ton of film... The fixer & stop bath will also last for six months to a year. Depending on what developer you use, and how much you shoot, that will also last for quite a while. It sounds like a lot of money at first, but you hardly ever have to replace the stuff so it's very cheap in the long run.

Sending film out is much more expensive. 20 rolls (maybe less) is probably pretty close to the break even point. With current prices, for what you would pay to develop 20 rolls by sending them to a lab you could buy everything you need to do it yourself.

i have a pretty good sized cart filling up at freestylephoto. double reel tank, pinch squeegee, brown bottles, etc.... that's also where i saw the outdated film. Czech Republic. fomapan i think it was. for 1.79 a roll. it just just outdated special though. doesnt say how far out of date, or how it was stored.

 

[naptime]

btw: josh: when i first saw your name... it made me think of someone saying ohio, with a stutter...

then i looked at it a little more...... and being from toledo it jumped out at me.....

by change are you a jeep owner?

 

[Railphotog]

I bought an older camera on eBay a while ago, it came with two rolls of Kodax Tri-X. The expriry dates on them are 06/82 and 09/83. I can give you a good price on them if you get stuck!

 

[DiskoJoe]

I know many people that intentionally let film expire before using it to get a desired effect. Typically these are folks who cross process their own negatives. So I would say, Rock the expired film!

 

[DiskoJoe]

Film Destroyer! - a set on Flickr

 

[Tiberius47]

No reason not to use it. Go for it!

 

[Josh66]

i have a pretty good sized cart filling up at freestylephoto. double reel tank, pinch squeegee, brown bottles, etc.... that's also where i saw the outdated film. Czech Republic. fomapan i think it was. for 1.79 a roll. it just just outdated special though. doesnt say how far out of date, or how it was stored.

Delete that squeegee. You don't need it, and it may actually damage your film. Use Photo Flo in distilled water for the final rinse. You'll get nice clean negs with no water marks, and no scratches. Don't forget the clips for hanging the film to dry.

I bought some expired Legacy Pro 100 (rebranded Fuji Acros - awesome film) for cheap from Freestyle not long ago. Not sure if they still have it, but the stuff I got expired May 2011. Still good by a very wide margin.

edit
Oh yeah, on the Jeep thing - sadly, I had to sell it. The last couple years have been the only time since I started driving that I was without a Jeep.

 

[Buckster]

Have you decided on which film camera(s) you'll be getting/using?

Medium format gives a lot more bang for the buck these days, now that the great medium format cameras of yesteryear can be had so inexpensively. Ordering MF film online is as easy as ordering 35mm film online, and developing is just as easy also.

For printing, a lot of folks scan the negs themselves and print at home with inkjet. You may find that not only do the locals not sell B&W film anymore, they don't process or print it either. So for prints, there's a good chance you'll send the negs through the mail and wait for prints or do it yourself at home, just like the developing.

Or, if the inkjet isn't really the quality photos you want to produce, enlargers and the rest of the darkroom stuff you'd need can be had on eBay or Craigslist seriously cheap these days as well, though you'd need to actually put together a real darkroom for that.

Just some more stuff to think about.