Point and shoot inspiration

[Bebulamar]

Really? Which phone? I have not seen a cell phone which I can set focus, aperture, shutter speed or ISO manually.

 

[Light Guru]

Really? Which phone? I have not seen a cell phone which I can set focus, aperture, shutter speed or ISO manually.

Well you cannot change the aperature that is a fixed size on all cell phone. But it's not like point and shoot cameras give you much if any control over aperature anyway.

I use an iPhone 6. With iOS 8 that was released last fall came the ability to manually change shutter speed and ISO. Setting focus has been around much longer. Lots of different camera apps have added the manual control features since iOS 8 now allows it.

You can even get add on lenses that give you a wide angle or telephoto lenses. There are a lot cheep ones with crappy optics. The best add on lenses I've seen are the moment lens. Moment - World's Best Lenses for Mobile Photography They are high quality optical glass that adds no distinction. They are actualy designed by someone who has experience designing lenses for cameras.

 

[soufiej]

P&S definitely have their time and place.

Also, couldn't agree more that the Fiat 500 is incredibly tiny and probably couldn't carry two passengers and large lens.

Possibly I'm misreading your intent but, "P&S definitely have their time and place", is the sort of backhanded, somewhat dismissive type of remark I hear with regularity from the die hard DSLR users. This thread isn't intended to be about the time and place for a P&S nor a discussion of the time and place for a DSLR which, it could be argued, can be replaced by an analog film camera for even better results. To each their own and to each their budget can be satisfied with a decent camera when they have facts and not hyperbole to work with. Readers of the forum can find advice regarding the pros and cons of each camera type in enough locations to make up their mind about the usefulness to them of any camera type. The thread is merely here to introduce the P&S user to the idea they are often only limited by their willingness to gain a thorough working knowledge of and experience with their camera and how to make high quality images with minimal investment of resources which often are required by other of life's many demands. The thread isn't at all about equipment envy. And certainly is meant to demonstrate just buying lots of recommended and expensive gear isn't necessarily going to make you a better photographer.

As to your comments regarding the Fiat 500, I know this isn't an automotive forum. Just my two cents worth here though, the 500 is bigger on the inside than you would expect by looking at the outside. My SO has been an amputee for the last 17 years and has been in a wheelchair on several occasions over those years. We had up until the Fiat a Rav4 which was room enough for us and the wheelchair but got what I considered lousy gas mileage. I was recalling my Hondas from the '70's and '80's which gave me 40 mpg on average while the Toyota struggled to get 20 in my day to day driving. After 17 years with the Rav4 it required either maintenance or trading. I would go into a dealership and tell them my priorities of 30 mpg in town and getting a wheelchair in the back and they would either laugh or take me to something that got 24 mpg and smile a rather stupid grin. Of course, most didn't know their own products, most only knew how to sell one or two models and, therefore, treated the other buyers with indifference to the client's wishes. Lazy salespeople exist in all fields and they all tend to fall back on what's easy to sell not what the customer wants or needs.. But this is also not a sales person bashing thread. I worked in sales for 30 years (and, really, aren't we all in sales of some sort) and just know how a lot of salespeople think.

I looked at the Fiat, drove it (with a manual transmission) and thought it was a great deal of fun to drive - which the SUV wasn't - but thought it might not have the interior room to fit the wheelchair. The sales manager loaned me the car for a day and I stopped by a pharmacy that rents wheelchairs asking to borrow one for five minutes. Put down the rear seats in the Fiat - which aren't usable for much, everyone admits - and slid the full size wheelchair into the car with minimal effort. We made the deal when I returned the car the next day. Now I'm averaging about 30 to 32 mpg in town (Dallas) and can get far more in the car than I had ever expected.

However, the Fiat and a camera is more about the lack of hiding space for a camera. The Fiat is pretty wide open and a big camera bag isn't going to fit behind the seats. Just as the 500 has good visibility out, so too does it have good visibility into the car. I don't want a large camera bag, which suggests large and expensive equipment, sitting in the hatch of the Fiat when I make my daily scheduled visits throughout town.

With the gas money I save though, I certainly could more easily afford one of those large DSLR lenses you mentioned.

 

[waday]

P&S definitely have their time and place.

Also, couldn't agree more that the Fiat 500 is incredibly tiny and probably couldn't carry two passengers and large lens.

Possibly I'm misreading your intent but, "P&S definitely have their time and place", is the sort of backhanded, somewhat dismissive type of remark I hear with regularity from the die hard DSLR users. This thread isn't intended to be about the time and place for a P&S nor a discussion of the time and place for a DSLR which, it could be argued, can be replaced by an analog film camera for even better results. To each their own and to each their budget can be satisfied with a decent camera when they have facts and not hyperbole to work with. Readers of the forum can find advice regarding the pros and cons of each camera type in enough locations to make up their mind about the usefulness to them of any camera type. The thread is merely here to introduce the P&S user to the idea they are often only limited by their willingness to gain a thorough working knowledge of and experience with their camera and how to make high quality images with minimal investment of resources which often are required by other of life's many demands. The thread isn't at all about equipment envy. And certainly is meant to demonstrate just buying lots of recommended and expensive gear isn't necessarily going to make you a better photographer.

As to your comments regarding the Fiat 500, I know this isn't an automotive forum. Just my two cents worth here though, the 500 is bigger on the inside than you would expect by looking at the outside. My SO has been an amputee for the last 17 years and has been in a wheelchair on several occasions over those years. We had up until the Fiat a Rav4 which was room enough for us and the wheelchair but got what I considered lousy gas mileage. I was recalling my Hondas from the '70's and '80's which gave me 40 mpg on average while the Toyota struggled to get 20 in my day to day driving. After 17 years with the Rav4 it required either maintenance or trading. I would go into a dealership and tell them my priorities of 30 mpg in town and getting a wheelchair in the back and they would either laugh or take me to something that got 24 mpg and smile a rather stupid grin. Of course, most didn't know their own products, most only knew how to sell one or two models and, therefore, treated the other buyers with indifference to the client's wishes. Lazy salespeople exist in all fields and they all tend to fall back on what's easy to sell not what the customer wants or needs.. But this is also not a sales person bashing thread. I worked in sales for 30 years (and, really, aren't we all in sales of some sort) and just know how a lot of salespeople think.

I looked at the Fiat, drove it (with a manual transmission) and thought it was a great deal of fun to drive - which the SUV wasn't - but thought it might not have the interior room to fit the wheelchair. The sales manager loaned me the car for a day and I stopped by a pharmacy that rents wheelchairs asking to borrow one for five minutes. Put down the rear seats in the Fiat - which aren't usable for much, everyone admits - and slid the full size wheelchair into the car with minimal effort. We made the deal when I returned the car the next day. Now I'm averaging about 30 to 32 mpg in town (Dallas) and can get far more in the car than I had ever expected.

However, the Fiat and a camera is more about the lack of hiding space for a camera. The Fiat is pretty wide open and a big camera bag isn't going to fit behind the seats. Just as the 500 has good visibility out, so too does it have good visibility into the car. I don't want a large camera bag, which suggests large and expensive equipment, sitting in the hatch of the Fiat when I make my daily scheduled visits throughout town.

With the gas money I save though, I certainly could more easily afford one of those large DSLR lenses you mentioned.

Well, I was trying to agree with you, in that P&S are great for some occasions...

Also, that was a joke about the Fiat and DSLRs... In any event, I'm glad the Fiat works for you.

 

[soufiej]

Really? Which phone? I have not seen a cell phone which I can set focus, aperture, shutter speed or ISO manually.

IMO you haven't looked into the P&S category very thoroughly if you don't think you cannot adjust focus, aperture, shutter speed or ISO manually. I haven't been looking in the sub $100 range but even at the $150 range you have "P" mode on most P&S's along with exposure compensation. By $250 you have Tv, Av and full manual modes (Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : PowerShot SX520 HS Another hundred or so can get you RAW format and an EVF. Still very small sensors, not always a drawback if you read my "will resolution always win" thread in the beginner's section of the forum. However, what you get out of any camera is largely limited by, in large part, how willing the user is to learn their camera. That, IMO, is what the P&S photographers featured in Emphoka have shown. You'd have to ask the editors of Emphoka why they decided to only show images taken with P&S's but my guess would be they are not looking at the gear, only the results. My opinion is, increasingly, the more experienced the photographer, the more capable they can be at working with a P&S simply because they know the results they desire and what controls will give them those results. Traditional manual focus is available on many P&S's or by manipulating the available (defeatable) "auto" controls to get the camera doing what you want.

That's the purpose behind the thread.

If you as a working photographer are in the habit of looking at other shooter's work and trying to backward engineer the image knowing the limitations the shooter faced, then looking at the shots on Emphoka should suggest the P&S category isn't as limited as you have been expecting.

All cameras you look at are going to have trade offs. If you get "this", it's likely you'll give up "that". Getting both is many times simply a matter of spending more. Unfortunately, not everyone has that "more" to spend on a camera or the situations in which the camera will be used don't lend themself to large, expensive cameras and all the gear that goes with them. I would say there really isn't an all purpose P&S any more than there's an all purpose, walk around DSLR. The price range for P&S's though is very competitive and each manufacturer is trying to offer their wares to the widest potential buyer base possible. That's both good and bad until you consider the right camera for a parent might actually still be the right camera for a frequent traveler/hiker/biker/nature or birding enthusiast. If you immediately think a category of camera can't do something, then expectation biases will be satisfied and you wont find what you want since you've already made up your mind it doesn't exist. If you have been thinking that point and shoot immediately removes image quality and manual control from the P&S category, look again at Emphoka and think about how those shots were made.

How many buyers get talked into a DSLR and never take it out of "Auto" mode? Probably quite a good % IMO. Check The Traveler's comments about operational complexity in the "Completely Lost" thread in the mirrorless camera section of the forum. I was looking at a Sony mirrorless just yesterday and the amount of information provided on the LCD screen is what I consider completely intimidating to the newbie photographer. To just take snaps of the kids for grandma I would bet most users would simply ignore 95% of the things the camera can provide.

I'm not here to sell P&S's any more than I intend to talk anyone out of a more elaborate camera. As I have said, the thread is about showing the potential of P&S's. And, if that leads anyone to rethink their opinions of the P&S category, that's fine too. Achieving anywhere close to those results will require an inquisitive photographer. If you aren't inquisitive and willing to learn then, IMO, it doesn't matter what camera you buy. A few (fairly inexpensive) add ons to a decent P&S can provide some opportunities you simply wouldn't have with a DSLR and certainly not at P&S budgets.

Do the research and do some prioritizing. That's how I always suggested any of my clients begin. Then be inquisitive. Read owners manuals for the potential cameras on your list and think about how to work with the camera and not allow the camera to control you. The better P&S's are about diminishing returns. How close you can get at a given price range is, IMO, only limited by your amount of knowledge and willingness to think.

 

[soufiej]

Well, I was trying to agree with you, in that P&S are great for some occasions...

Also, that was a joke about the Fiat and DSLRs... In any event, I'm glad the Fiat works for you.

I understand. That is, though, the type of comment I have been hearing as the salesperson is leading me over to the DSLR's and away from the size and price range I said I wanted to stay in for this purchase.

And "Tino" works great! Loads o'fun!

 

[waday]

I understand. That is, though, the type of comment I have been hearing as the salesperson is leading me over to the DSLR's and away from the size and price range I said I wanted to stay in for this purchase.

And "Tino" works great! Loads o'fun!

Salespeople are in the business to make money. They don't care about you, what your needs are, or what you purchase. That may not be true for all salespeople, but it certainly is for a good portion. Because of this, you have to make your intent clear and firm. If they lead you in the wrong direction, find someone else.

 

[dennybeall]

Looking at the pictures on the mentioned site there are some well thought out, well chosen and or posed shots but it's apparently OK to have a huge amount of noise and still be an acceptable shot.
Is that inherent with the P&S cameras or just this website?

 

[Torus34]

Oh, my! It seems that an important point implicit in the OP -- perhaps the most important point -- is being overlooked here.

Observe the golfer. He carries with him not one but a slew of clubs. Each has its place depending on the lie of the ball and its distance from the pin.

And so it is, to some extent, with cameras. There's no single 'best' camera -- no 'camera for all seasons'. There are certain cameras which are superior in certain circumstances. The 8x10 studio rig's a tad unwieldy for candid street photography. A simple P&S would not be the choice of a professional sports photographer doing NFL shots.

And so it goes.

I've enjoyed using a Yashica Electro GS for street work. It's unobtrusive and requires little attention on my part to exposure. I've also delighted in a Chinon body fitted with a Pentax 135mm lens in the same streets.

It all depends.

 

[soufiej]

Oh, my! It seems that an important point implicit in the OP -- perhaps the most important point -- is being overlooked here.

Observe the golfer. He carries with him not one but a slew of clubs. Each has its place depending on the lie of the ball and its distance from the pin.

And so it is, to some extent, with cameras. There's no single 'best' camera -- no 'camera for all seasons'. There are certain cameras which are superior in certain circumstances. The 8x10 studio rig's a tad unwieldy for candid street photography. A simple P&S would not be the choice of a professional sports photographer doing NFL shots.

And so it goes.

I've enjoyed using a Yashica Electro GS for street work. It's unobtrusive and requires little attention on my part to exposure. I've also delighted in a Chinon body fitted with a Pentax 135mm lens in the same streets.

It all depends.

No, nothing overlooked. First, I didn't start the thread to sell the idea of a P&S to anyone. Nor did I want to convince anyone their DSLR with all of its lenses and filters and accessories is in any way not the tool to use in situations where either the highest quality image, capable of the largest increase in size and capable of suiting a very broad range of applications isn't a choice for the intelligent user with sufficient funds to own all that gear. Everyone is free to use what they feel they should have.

Some people are never going to be content with anything less than a top of the line kit. That goes for lots of hobbies and certainly a lot of occupations. Some people will spend the money for a Leica even after they've been told it's a dressed up Panasonic. Some people wear a Timex and some don't. This thread isn't trying to convince you of anything. If you find inspiration in the website, then you can make up your own mind about which camera to buy. No one is selling anything here.

"It all depends" is pretty much the idea of the thread. If you don't care for P&S's, don't use them. But would you carry your entire bag of clubs to the driving range or the putting green? Probably not. If you knew you were going to take a day to shoot "this", would you take all your gear just to be ready for "that"? It all depends.

If you told me you were going to buy a 120" projection systems and put it in a room 8' X 10', I'd tell you that's the wrong choice. If you told me you were going to buy a 2 watt triode amplifier to go with your single driver, 16 Ohm full range speakers @ 98dB sensitivity, I'd say that would technically work and, if you liked the results with music, you should use that system. If you told me you wanted to use that same amp with three way speakers which dip to 1.5 Ohm at some frequencies and rise to 64 Ohms with a severe capacative phase angle and it all operates at 84dB, I'd say that's not at all a wise choice.

Know your system, know your advantages and your disadvantages. Learn your equipment. That covers any equipment. If you think a camera will work for you, arrange an audition. If you've made up your mind you will always see the flaws in the equipment, not only will you always see the flaws but you'll probably introduce a few just to prove yourself right.

The thread isn't about anything more than that.

 

[soufiej]

Looking at the pictures on the mentioned site there are some well thought out, well chosen and or posed shots but it's apparently OK to have a huge amount of noise and still be an acceptable shot.
Is that inherent with the P&S cameras or just this website?

You'll have to decide for yourself. What causes noise? How do you work around the problem? Personally, I'm a bit amazed when a review claims there's noise at ISO 800. Probably there is. It will cost a reasonable amount for there not to be. Or when the review says the f2.8 lens isn't giving sufficient separation between subject and background. It will cost a reasonable amount for there to be.

Again, I'm not selling nor commenting on P&S's or DSLR's. If you find a P&S that interests you, look at sample images in reviews. If you're still interested, arrange an audition.

At the very least, this thread might have got you looking and thinking about your priorities and the alternatives available. That's never a bad thing.

(I would expect all of the images on the site are jpeg quality so they load quickly.)

 

[bribrius]

some of the point and shoots costs more than entry level dslrs

 

[soufiej]

That's true, lots of cameras cost more than an entry level DSLR. Go to "Completely lost" in the mirrorless camera section of the forum and you'll see the justifications for those cameras (which also often cost more than an entry level DSLR) vs an unnamed entry level DSLR. But an entry level DSLR is still an ENTRY level DSLR. I suspect if I began a thread stating the OEM kit lens that comes with the entry level DSLR is as good as you would ever need, I would get tremendous push back on that idea too. Experienced photographers would rush to the thread to shout about how wrong I was and how any "serious" photographer would immediately trash the kit lens and spend more for an improved system - at a higher than "entry level" price. And then the buyer would have one single lens. A system to build with, yes, but at the price just one single lens. Then you begin acquiring gear for your entry level DSLR. Right? So entry level cost is not often entry level price, no?

However, once again I will say this is not a thread about this camera vs that camera, though a lot of people love to engage in those debates, or, should I say, smack downs. I am not selling anything on this thread other than the possible opportunity for the reader to find some inspiration in a less conventional manner than loading your camera bag down with pounds and pounds of gear at higher and higher costs. If this thread leads you to a $35 plastic camera ( http://www.arlingtoncamera.com/shop/products/Holga_120N_Medium_Format_Plastic_Camera-4520-241.html), I'm not selling that either.

In the "Completely lost" thread one member mentioned the ease and speed of raising a lighter weight camera to their eye for quick shots. The term used in that thread to justify a mirrorless camera purchase was "less rotational inertia". Make that doubly so for a P&S. The same thread mentions the fatigue difference in carrying a "pocketable" camera vs a DSLR and all of its associated equipment. Though, as several members in the mirrorless thread mentioned, "As for anything, there will always be haters or people bashing about mirrorless, saying that it sucks and that DSLR are better blablabla. You got to try a good mirrorless camera to understand that it is a great technology." So it seems that unless you are ready to have your ticket punched for a first class fare all the way, there will always be people (haters?) who will argue against your decision for what you should own and what you should use for your own personal photographic experience. There will always be the folks who want to pick apart a shot for what is wrong with the technical merits of the image while they ignore the image itself. And there will always be people who are perfectly willing to tell you what you should do with your own money.

I knew they'd show up in this thread too.

 

[bribrius]

That's true, lots of cameras cost more than an entry level DSLR. Go to "Completely lost" in the mirrorless camera section of the forum and you'll see the justifications for those cameras (which also often cost more than an entry level DSLR) vs an unnamed entry level DSLR. But an entry level DSLR is still an ENTRY level DSLR. I suspect if I began a thread stating the OEM kit lens that comes with the entry level DSLR is as good as you would ever need, I would get tremendous push back on that idea too. Experienced photographers would rush to the thread to shout about how wrong I was and how any "serious" photographer would immediately trash the kit lens and spend more for an improved system - at a higher than "entry level" price. And then the buyer would have one single lens. A system to build with, yes, but at the price just one single lens. Then you begin acquiring gear for your entry level DSLR. Right? So entry level cost is not often entry level price, no?

However, once again I will say this is not a thread about this camera vs that camera, though a lot of people love to engage in those debates, or, should I say, smack downs. I am not selling anything on this thread other than the possible opportunity for the reader to find some inspiration in a less conventional manner than loading your camera bag down with pounds and pounds of gear at higher and higher costs. If this thread leads you to a $35 plastic camera ( http://www.arlingtoncamera.com/shop/products/Holga_120N_Medium_Format_Plastic_Camera-4520-241.html), I'm not selling that either.

In the "Completely lost" thread one member mentioned the ease and speed of raising a lighter weight camera to their eye for quick shots. The term used in that thread to justify a mirrorless camera purchase was "less rotational inertia". Make that doubly so for a P&S. The same thread mentions the fatigue difference in carrying a "pocketable" camera vs a DSLR and all of its associated equipment. Though, as several members in the mirrorless thread mentioned, "As for anything, there will always be haters or people bashing about mirrorless, saying that it sucks and that DSLR are better blablabla. You got to try a good mirrorless camera to understand that it is a great technology." So it seems that unless you are ready to have your ticket punched for a first class fare all the way, there will always be people (haters?) who will argue against your decision for what you should own and what you should use for your own personal photographic experience. There will always be the folks who want to pick apart a shot for what is wrong with the technical merits of the image while they ignore the image itself. And there will always be people who are perfectly willing to tell you what you should do with your own money.

I knew they'd show up in this thread too.

i totally lost track of the point of this thread. Proper tool, proper use. I will just say, is either you love photography and taking photos or you dont. Every camera has its benefits and drawbacks. i shoot with about anything. The more you get involved in post processing, the crappier camera you can usually afford to use. As you arent counting on that sooc image as even being on par or usable. Entry level dslr kit lenses do suck (i am stuck with some), as well as the entry level dslrs themselves most times. I have a bridge camera that will out shoot my entry level kit lens 9 out of 10 times long as light is decent. cant tell much difference between my kids 30 dollar point and shoot and my crappy dslr kit lens in good light on portraits. Point and shoot might actually do better though having lower mp. what you are buying is manual controls and a better sensor. Higher dynamic range. If that isnt important to you, the point and shoot will do just fine and the higher end ones or bridge cameras have manual controls and higher dynamic range (though still not comparable to most dslrs).

i primarily have a dslr for the ten percent of the time the others dont work for what i am doing. i now am overusing it (a point and shoot would be better suited for half what i use a dslr for) but in principal the dslr is for shots requiring higher dynamic range and that i want in much higher mp with more manual adjusting. If i dont need the dynamic range i can still use the bridge camera. if i dont need the dynamic range (low light too) or manual controls i can go all the way down to the cheapo point and shoot. when i am really slumming it i shoot a 8 mp point and shoot camera i got for free off someones front lawn. or the cellphone (5mp) or a toy camera (4 mp). I think you will find on this site some people use and own multiple types of cameras for multiple purposes. some of the photos in your link appear to have some post processing done. i think that is good to take note of.

 

[soufiej]

The "track" of the thread is determined by the responses to the thread. The point of the thread is in the website I linked to.

IMO, these two sentences are important and somewhat contradictory, " Higher dynamic range. If that isnt important to you, the point and shoot will do just fine ... ", and, " ... if i dont need the dynamic range (low light too) ... ". I don't own a gun but I would guess I wouldn't take a .22 out to shoot a rhino. On the other hand, how often do we shoot rhinos? (OK, the Dallas Safari Club will sell you a ticket so you can casually shoot a captured/captive rhino. That's not the point of the thread by any means.)

The mid-range pricing on P&S's will often gain you the manual controls needed and, of course, the creative photographer will always come up with work arounds for virtually any problem. Though, as with most situations there will be trade offs which you must consider. Several of the P&S's I've looked at have the ability to stitch together multiple shots in-camera to create a higher dynamic range final result. Or the same can be created during processing. Not a justification for P&S's, just a response to your post.

Again, it all depends on your technical objectives with the camera and your subjective view of what should be the purpose of your camera. Whenever the equipment is THE limiting factor in your subjective opinion, then, iMO, you should either better learn your equipment or find an alternative.