Question about developing B&W.

[Helen B]

You need to be careful with fixer if you want your film to last - even though it still clears, old fixer can leave complex silver ions behind that don't wash out easily, and they can then slowly reduce to silver. If you want to be as economical as possible with fixer, use two-bath fixing.

Whether it is wise or not to re-use developer depends mostly on the developer and the dilution it was used at. Which developer are you re-using, Anders?

 

[Compaq]

DD-X 1+4 is what I'm using.

I've never considered a two bath fixer process.

 

[ann]

Two bath especially useful when using fiber paper for archival purposes.

 

[Josh66]

I mix fresh chemicals each time. I used to re-use my b&w chemicals, but there doesn't really seem to be a point since the shelf life of the opened bottles are limited. If I re-used, then my chemicals would be old and weak before I finished the bottles..

The specific developer you're using is a pretty big factor too.

Some developers are meant to be reused (TMax, any C-41 kit, for example), others are one-shot (Rodinal, HC-110, etc).

Undiluted Rodinal and HC-110 pretty much last forever. Mixed and properly stored TMax dev should last at least a couple of months - maybe up to 6 or more.

TMax is the only (B&W) developer I currently use that I pour back into the bottle. After a certain number of rolls, you do have to extend the development time, but as long as you keep track of how many rolls you've developed with it I haven't found it to be a big deal. I can't tell the difference between film developed in freshly mixed TMax and TMax that has 20 or so rolls through it.

Now that I think about it, I think TMax is the only B&W developer I have ever reused... Fixer and stop bath though, I keep using till it goes bad (I make sure I always have an unopened bottle to mix up in case it goes bad before I expect it to).

 

[djacobox372]

B/w developer is so cheap, why bother?

 

[Josh66]

B/w developer is so cheap, why bother?

Well, yeah - something like Rodinal at roughly $10 for a 500mL bottle - considering that you only use like 5-10mL per roll, I would never even think about trying to reuse it. Worst case, you're 'only' going to get 50 rolls out of a bottle.

TMax on the other hand, I would only get about 12 rolls out of a 1 gallon bottle if I didn't reuse it. Considering that the instructions basically tell you to reuse it, I don't think there's any harm.

I personally have never done it, but a lot of people keep Xtol going pretty much indefinitely with replenishment. They claim it's even better that way... I've always used Xtol one-shot.

 

[timor]

B/w developer is so cheap, why bother?

Well, yeah - something like Rodinal at roughly $10 for a 500mL bottle - considering that you only use like 5-10mL per roll, I would never even think about trying to reuse it. Worst case, you're 'only' going to get 50 rolls out of a bottle.

TMax on the other hand, I would only get about 12 rolls out of a 1 gallon bottle if I didn't reuse it. Considering that the instructions basically tell you to reuse it, I don't think there's any harm.

I personally have never done it, but a lot of people keep Xtol going pretty much indefinitely with replenishment. They claim it's even better that way... I've always used Xtol one-shot.

Tmax developer is great in 1+9 one shot use (25 developments). The best cost effectiveness is with mixing own developers from basic components. Beutler cost about 9 cents per roll of 35mm film.

 

[Josh66]

How does 1+9 compare to the standard 1+4? I always see the times for it listed, but have never tried it.

I'm about due to mix up another batch of TMax - I may try using that as one shot 1+9...

Do you mix it from the concentrated developer, or do you make the 1+4 working solution and dilute that?


edit
If my slightly buzzed math is right, I should be able to dilute the 1+4 working solution to 1+1 and that should be 1+9... Correct?
Or do you find it easier to just mix it straight from the bottle every time?

 

[timor]

Always from the concentrate. Why ? Mixed with water once will not last to long. Same regards HC110. when comes to times of development, can't tell you, I just don't remember my originally established time for TMX in Tmax Dev 1+9 only, all I know, after 11 min in 20C with normal agitation developer is drain and for 3 min film will stand in solution of borax. Results ? Better acutation, smaller grain (actually no grain at all ) and good local contrast with very smooth tones. Hm, once I have to use sodium metaborate to see,, if that will increase the contrast.

 

[Helen B]

When you dilute a developer you are also diluting the preservative in it, so the rate of oxidation during storage tends to rise. There is also less active developing agent in a particular volume, of course. The developing agent has a limited capacity (though some regeneration can happen). This often means that the reused full-strength working solution can develop roughly the same number of films as the dilute developer used one-shot: D-76 is an excellent example. There is an exception when the volume of diluted developer needed to cover the film is greater than the minimum required for development - in which case you would be discarding un-exhausted developer. In that case it can be OK to reuse the dilute developer soon after (there is enough developing agent left, but low concentration of preservative). Remember that there can be two stages of dilution: dilution from a concentrated stock to working strength, and dilution down from working strength.

Two-bath developers like Diafine can be extremely economical. That lasts forever and never really exhausts, it only loses volume because of carry-over.

Two bath fixing is also economical. For any chosen criterion based on the condition of the film or paper leaving the fixer you can show that two bath fixing is the most economical. For a given fixer volume you can either have the greatest throughput or the most archival result, using two-bath fixer. However, fixer is extremely cheap when bought as plain hypo, and that can be used one-shot as it is with no other ingredients.

 

[amolitor]

How pernicious are the "complex silver ions" that get left behind by inadequate fixing?

There have been times now and then when I haven't been 100% sure of my fixer, and I've tested the degree of fixing by applying a little developer to the film-edge under room light. My reasoning is that the developer SHOULD precipitate any remaning halide and let me know what the undeveloped silver content of the film is. If the film-edge remains clear, I figure the film is in pretty good shape, fixing-wise.

Is this reasonable, or is it possible to have interestingly large concentrations of silver compounds that do NOT develop out, but will degrade into silver over time?

 

[Helen B]

I don't know - these are not simple silver halides. The usual test is to use sodium sulphide (Kodak formula ST-1) which is pretty much guaranteed to react with silver complexes.

 

[timor]

I don't know - these are not simple silver halides. The usual test is to use sodium sulphide (Kodak formula ST-1) which is pretty much guaranteed to react with silver complexes.

I do it to, 2 min. wash in solution of 20 grams / litre.