rant/ photographer/ stylist/ makeupartist

[mmaria]

Soo.. I wanted to do something that I haven't done before... to cooperate with a makeup artist. I live in a small town and girls here who call themselves makeup artists aren't someone I'd like to work with... but in a town near me there is a makeup artist that is kind of known in my town also, her work is nothing I would call near great but I'm running out of option near me.. so I contacted her.
(we have also a mutual girlfriend B and B doesn't have any contact with her because "V deserved that" but B didn't want to tell me what happened between them, she said "maybe she's not like that when it's about work")

The main goal was to do photographs that I'll use for my portfolio and she'll use for her advertising, and we will tag each other on Facebook. That way my work will be seen in that town also, so it's an ok marketing for me too.
She said my photos are lovely and she suggested that we could shoot editorial, and that she has a sister who study fashion design and three of us could do something together. I wanted them to let me know what kind of clothes are we talking about and what kind of makeup will be on models, just to prepare myself and start thinking about ideas that will make everyone satisfied. And one of the tasks is to find models.

She (makeup artist, I'll call her "V", and I'll call her sister designer "IV") made a group on viber and said to her sister V: "IV, this is M, photographer, and you need to explain your concept to her"
IV: "Regarding my concept, my stuff are all black so your style of photographing with the natural shades of gay suits me well" (I don't get "my natural shades of gray"!?... is she right?)
I decided to ignore the fact that this is about HER concept, not our, and I asked her to photograph stuff, she said she'll photograph them in the morning. So, in the morning (among, normal, nice small talk) I say:
M: " Do you have anything else that's not black, because black is a bit demanding for editing. What about that fur coat I saw on V's profile.. And I'd like to have one blonde model?"
IV said: "M I think that photographing black clothes shouldn't have to be problem for a photographer. blah blah.. blonde will draw attention on her not on what is the most important here, the clothes (what, when, how it became about her clothes?)... and, that fur coat doesn't fit in my concept so forget about it"...

and so on ... so on... After a while... I was trying to explain that three of us should agree on everything and three of us should have something good out of this all, and that they should tell me what is their vision.I was trying to be as polite as possible but she IV (and sometimes V kept pushing my buttons) kept telling me stuff about photography.
V: "It shouldn't be a problem for photographer to photograph different things"

I suggested a location because there are many trees there, beautiful paths and because the trees make shades and beautiful light, and it has a great variety so we could photograph there in the middle of the day. But they wanted a different location. it's a lake in open space, no shade nowhere near and they wanted models on the dock. I explained that that the lake can't be photographed in the middle of the day and with models wearing black...but "IV" said: There is the time of the day when photographs can be taken outside"

And so on and so on... it escalated. I said that we should all stick to our fields and I didn't say a thing about designing clothes and makeup because I don't know anything about it, so if they like what I do then leave some photography choices to me ... she said that "my negative approach heavily reduce successful chance for successful cooperation. I hope I made it clear for you."
Then she said that "she worked with people who worked with the strongest world famous magazines and that they accept , in fully, demands of their clients... there are many photographers around and we already have a great cooperation with one girl who does all our editorials" (I'll post examples if anyone is interested)
I said "if you were my client I would listen and do everything you want, but you're not my client, you're not paying me, you suppose to be my collaborator and we suppose to make agreements about everything that's involved in making this happen"


Anyway. ... she said she wont be a part of this, she doesn't like the atmosphere. I said: It's ok, all the best, we tried and that's it... That's all from me girls..."... then she said that I should work with her sister V-makeup artist. and Then V said that we didn't understand each other, that it supposed to be fun... blah blah.. it's shame...

and that's that I think.

I'm sorry if I was confusing a bit.

I'm sorry my first try wasn't successful, but I'm not ready to be "that much professional" to put up with enormous ego and patronizing. I can't.

I was polite, calm, ignored lots of things before I started to react.

After this failed, my girlfriend (I mentioned her at the beginning) said many stuff about V being ungrateful and unprofessional. I am glad I didn't continue with them and I'll keep looking for someone who's ok.

My thoughts are that if someone's paying me I could put up with some **** but doing thing for free so three people will all have something good for themselves, involving my time and knowledge with someone who acts like that ... no thank you.

I'm trying to figure out what are my next steps... who to contact etc. @DanOstergren suggested that I contact a model agency, but there's no model agency near me. That I'll do when I'm out of the state.

Do you have similar experiences perhaps? How to know that someone is a proper person for you without going trough all of this? (I know it can't be done but I just feel hopeless right now because I really am running out of options in my area)


ty, I feel better now...sorry for the long story

 

[ClickAddict]

Check out ModelMayhem for MU artists. Good resource for TF shoots (Trade for type situation like you mentioned which helps everyone build their portfolio) depending on the area you are in. You were right to drop this. The Clothing person thought it was her show and was treating it as her show. If she was paying like you said she would have been somewhat right in her actions (You still pay a photographer for their knowledge and should listen to their suggestions) But for a TF shoot, usually the one who proposes it, has an idea and they tend to be the lead, although usually good to listen to everybody.

 

[zombiesniper]

You did the right thing by walking on this and a big well done because I'm no where near as nice when someone that has no clue tells me what to do in my profession. I tend to be quite blunt in where they can stick their thoughts.
Good thing I'm not in the service industry. Think I'd be canned day one.

 

[table1349]

mmaria, if we knew where Wonderland was it might help. Here we have a cosmetology school. I always have a steady supply of makeup and hair people. If the instructor doesn't have someone currently that she feels can meet my needs she volunteers. It is a great resource without a lot of drama.

 

[tirediron]

Well that sounds like it was a whole lot of suck, but walking away was definitely the thing to do. As ClickAddict indicated a TF* shoot should be a cooperative effort. It's fine for the designer or MUA to have "their" concept, but it doesn't preclude your concept. When I do TF shoots or agency tests, I'm very clear with the models and anyone else involved. The time is divided equally, so if we agree on a two hour shoot, and it's just the model and me, we do [about] one hour of her ideas and [about] one hour mine (all discussed beforehand). If, on the other hand there's money involved, then whoever signs the cheques calls the shots. Period.

 

[robbins.photo]

Yup, sounds like somebody needs to tell both V and IV that if they can't pull there heads out M & B are going to put them both in the ER, and they'll both wind up on IV's.

Err.. or something like that. Seriously though, best to walk away from this and not look back. If they think the photography portion of this is so easy and are such experts on the subject then they don't need you at all, they can pull out a point and shoot and do whatever they want.

 

[vintagesnaps]

Of course it's easier sometimes to see something in hindsight, or see something when you're not in the situation, but here's what to me would indicate potential problems.

When they were talking about their concept instead of talking about a group effort, that indicates to me they wanted what they wanted, and may not be good at collaboration. When she said something about having worked with top world renowned magazines or photographers or whatever, that seems like an exaggeration - if that's what she does then why is she doing this free or in trade? I don't buy it.

Early on reading this I was already thinking this doesn't sound like it would turn out well. If things are being said that give you a bad feeling, trust your instinct. It might be better to say something like this doesn't seem like it will work for me, we have different things in mind, it seems like you might be better off to find another photographer, we may not be a good match - that kind of thing. That may not be quite what I'm thinking! but I'm going to keep it professional and not tell them I think the two of them are, umm, nevermind! lol

Live and learn I guess. Not sure if there are any other good options where you live, but maybe students would be a thought, even if they do their own makeup it might be better than this. Or, have you ever thought about learning to do make up yourself? I did makeup crew for school plays and it was fun to do. Of course that was stage makeup but maybe you could learn to do this yourself.

 

[pgriz]

Marija, some people are worth your trouble. Some are not. Seems to me you can do much better than what those two could have brought to the table.

 

[binga63]

Marija, it is an endless search, with more losses than wins....as said above it maybe a collaboration but someone must take the lead and if it is not working, smile and walk away. Universities and colleges have likely replacements, good luck

 

[mmaria]

Check out Model Mayhem for MU artists. Good resource for TF shoots (Trade for type situation like you mentioned which helps everyone build their portfolio) depending on the area you are in.

I just assume there are no Model Mayhem thing in my country but apparently there is, because I just googled it... and no... I didn't get any of search results for makeup artist, and I got a few for models but they are all pretty far away from me, and one that didn't doesn't fit in my work so... nothing...

You were right to drop this. The Clothing person thought it was her show and was treating it as her show. If she was paying like you said she would have been somewhat right in her actions (You still pay a photographer for their knowledge and should listen to their suggestions) But for a TF shoot, usually the one who proposes it, has an idea and they tend to be the lead, although usually good to listen to everybody.

well this was just a huge mess of people expecting different things from it.
I was acting and thinking like this is a team work, they weren't.

You did the right thing by walking on this and a big well done because I'm no where near as nice when someone that has no clue tells me what to do in my profession. I tend to be quite blunt in where they can stick their thoughts.
Good thing I'm not in the service industry. Think I'd be canned day one.

lol!
I was putting my phone down numerous times because I wanted to cool down... I wanted to make something out of it, that's why I was trying to be as polite as I can possible can... good thing it was all in messages so I had the time to cool down, otherwise we would certainly got into fight.

 

[mmaria]

mmaria, if we knew where Wonderland was it might help. Here we have a cosmetology school. I always have a steady supply of makeup and hair people. If the instructor doesn't have someone currently that she feels can meet my needs she volunteers. It is a great resource without a lot of drama.

Wonderland is Bosnia and Herzegovina. People from tpf can't help in that matter
I'll searched for cosmetology school, find one high school and a private cosmetology college-which I don't want to be my first choice must say (private colleges here don't have good reputation, complex theme really)... I'll search for more... thanks for suggesting me that!

Well that sounds like it was a whole lot of suck, but walking away was definitely the thing to do. As ClickAddict indicated a TF* shoot should be a cooperative effort. It's fine for the designer or MUA to have "their" concept, but it doesn't preclude your concept. When I do TF shoots or agency tests, I'm very clear with the models and anyone else involved. The time is divided equally, so if we agree on a two hour shoot, and it's just the model and me, we do [about] one hour of her ideas and [about] one hour mine (all discussed beforehand). If, on the other hand there's money involved, then whoever signs the cheques calls the shots. Period.

that sounds fair. I wanted to be fair for all of us and i actually sad to them that we all should be "crystal clear" with what we want to do individually.
Of coure... If I'm paid, then it's all different

 

[mmaria]

You definitely did the right thing by not participating in this mess.

yes, I feel that way too

We do collaborations, sometimes for fun (outside of our studio work). I think the difference is that we are the ones developing the concept, and then invite people to participate. It's not an equal collaboration. I'd suggest you approach your next concept from this point of view. You already have a sense of style or you wouldn't have been leaning towards that particular fur look, so trust your instincts.

i usually talk with people I photograph and tell them everything I expect from them, clothes, makeup, and get them to see what i do, so they know what they expect from me. But I also, always tell them that if they have any ideas they're more then welcome to bring them out.

I'd approach it like this, "I have designed a photo shoot around this particular concept (fill in the idea here)" and then let them know what type of clothing and MUAH you would like. Then invite them to join you.
The key is to let them know that you are the "project manager" (for lack of a better term).

yes, that is a good approach and I'll definitely do that next time... but I'll also say that if she, MUA, has an idea we will do that too.
Thank you! Really helpful!

We have fired MUAH two times in 4 years. (we always have one available for client hire). I find that the profession attracts some people with less than humble attitudes (ok, so does photography!)

lol I totaly agree

 

[mmaria]

Yup, sounds like somebody needs to tell both V and IV that if they can't pull there heads out M & B are going to put them both in the ER, and they'll both wind up on IV's.

Err.. or something like that. Seriously though, best to walk away from this and not look back. If they think the photography portion of this is so easy and are such experts on the subject then they don't need you at all, they can pull out a point and shoot and do whatever they want

I kind of regret that I didn't say to IV: "Well if you know that much about photography why don't you do it yourself"
well... I said it here.. it almost feel the same... almost
.

 

[mmaria]

Of course it's easier sometimes to see something in hindsight, or see something when you're not in the situation, but here's what to me would indicate potential problems.

When they were talking about their concept instead of talking about a group effort, that indicates to me they wanted what they wanted, and may not be good at collaboration. When she said something about having worked with top world renowned magazines or photographers or whatever, that seems like an exaggeration - if that's what she does then why is she doing this free or in trade? I don't buy it..

yes, you're completely right.

Early on reading this I was already thinking this doesn't sound like it would turn out well. If things are being said that give you a bad feeling, trust your instinct. It might be better to say something like this doesn't seem like it will work for me, we have different things in mind, it seems like you might be better off to find another photographer, we may not be a good match - that kind of thing. That may not be quite what I'm thinking! but I'm going to keep it professional and not tell them I think the two of them are, umm, nevermind! lol

Really, in the very beginning I felt like this is just not right...we're no match... V was constantly talking about photogenic people..I mean what?...but I decided not to listen the instinct and go with the flow...and well...you heard it all

Live and learn I guess. Not sure if there are any other good options where you live, but maybe students would be a thought, even if they do their own makeup it might be better than this. Or, have you ever thought about learning to do make up yourself? I did makeup crew for school plays and it was fun to do. Of course that was stage makeup but maybe you could learn to do this yourself

I'm running out of people I want to photograph here. Going to another city...right now I'm looking for another MUA and models. Everyone I photographed did their own makeup, the rest is pp work.

Me and makeup? Oh, idk... I don't wear any makeup and I really don't have any interest doing makeup, but having said that, I do follow some MUA on youtube and instagram because I need to learn some makeup techniques because of Photoshop editing

 

[mmaria]

Marija, some people are worth your trouble. Some are not. Seems to me you can do much better than what those two could have brought to the table.

Thank you, nicely said! I think so too!

Marija, it is an endless search, with more losses than wins....as said above it maybe a collaboration but someone must take the lead and if it is not working, smile and walk away. Universities and colleges have likely replacements, good luck

Underlined is something that I should keep in mind... These are my first steps in real world... and I'm aware that everything won't be great or even good, but I really didn't expect this kind of experience right at the first time ... but as you say "I don't stress" so neither will I

Thank you...checking colleges also