Recent argument I had with someone. your opinions?

[Eventer]

I told her that to me, being a photographer means you do all of that already. I don't want to be there just to click a shutter. Anyone can do that. I don't like the idea of someone changing my lighting on me without telling me and stuff. She then got mad at me because I was "insulting her job" I was simply trying to say that I can do that stuff already and that being a photographer was more than pressing the shutter button. I feel like her job title strips the photographer of any artistic liscense

am i in the wrong here?

Definatly not! I fully agree you.
The Photographer should be able to have comtrol over everything (Model, lighting etc etc - Everything Unless the want help from the "Artistic director" or whatever its called) To get the photo they want (or that the client wants) how can they be expected to acheive the photo if they have no say in anything?

 

[DerekSalem]

GeneralBenson is obviously completely correct in this topic. OP, I'm not trying to be rude in saying this...but you're coming across as a *very* egocentric person despite what you said. Just because you're a photographer doesn't mean you should have control over every aspect. *JUST* like a movie set, the Director is the one that overall decides how things happen...but if he doesn't take advice from the professionals around him (to achieve not only his view, but the view of those who are backing the art he's helping to create) the picture will be garbage (or at least not what the paying financial support wanted...which is the important aspect).

Whether you like your end product or not is irrelevant. It's about what *SHE* wants. I already read that you 2 have decided to work together but this could have been avoided in the first place if you had remained open instead of deciding that your opinion was the only one worth listening to.

This obviously isn't a complaint about you, OP. It's more of a general complaint that I've been seeing way too many people lately asking for C&C but not really believing in it unless it suits what they already wanted. Doesn't seem to make logical sense to me.

 

[Arch]

Yup, i have worked with many types of people in the media industry. You should all be working as a team to get the best result. By all means make suggestions to the Creative Director about what you think may look better, but she has every right to over ride it and do it her way.
This is what happens in a collaborative project.

She should have alot of experiance to get where she is, don't underestimate her knowledge. She may turn out to be an aweful Creative Director, in which case you will know if you want to work with her again, but generally there shouldn't be any problems.

Im sorry but to the people that still think that the photographer should have complete control on a collaborative project, your wrong.

 

[ann]

unless one is a "heavy hitter" the general has this correct.

This is one reason i never enjoyed commerical work, the art director was in charge, usually with story board in hand and no interest in the photographer ideas.

As an aside, another reason Photoshop became so popular with the design people

 

[supraman215]

The AD sounds like a Business Analyst, the client like the client, and the photog like the developer. If anyone is familiar with this business analogy lol. I learned something here today.

 

[TylerF]

like i said, I agree communication between the photog and creative director is needed. I thought she just meant that she does everything and i click the button without any say

i understand now. I am seriously a modest person lol. It just felt like she was trying to make me feel unimportant. Like if i were to paint a picture then have someone sign it and cal them the painter almost lol

 

[GeneralBenson]

like i said, I agree communication between the photog and creative director is needed. I thought she just meant that she does everything and i click the button without any say

i understand now. I am seriously a modest person lol. It just felt like she was trying to make me feel unimportant. Like if i were to paint a picture then have someone sign it and cal them the painter almost lol

That was her part part of being you both being wrong, that I forgot to mention. She sounds like she described it a lot worse than it is. Or she really is over-controlling. I don't think many ADs will actually move lights on there own, if for no other reason than because they shouldn't have to. They might say where it should go. But mostly, like I said, it's supposed to be a team dynamic. Some ADs will jump right in and HELP with all sorts of stuff . Help move lights, help style and prep, and the like. But I've yet to encounter the one who just totally domineers the set. Although I'm sure they're out there.

The other thing is, all these "professional photo shoots" that she has been on could mean just about anything. They could have been $100,000 ad campaigns, or they could have been $0 photographer portfolio campaigns, but the was a professional. So as to what level of experience with 'how professionals do it', I have no idea. But if she really has a good eye for posing and lighting design, don't be intimidated by it, use that to your advantage to make the final outcome even better!

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Welcome to the "next level" Tyler.

 

[GeneralBenson]

unless one is a "heavy hitter" the general has this correct.

Not necessarily. To a degree, people like Chase Jarvis, Joe McNally, and Anne Leibovitz get a little more free reign on shoots, but it's only because they are so good at understanding what the client want, and doing it. They are also picked in the first place because the client likes what they do and thinks they would be a good fit for the campaign. But don't be mistaken, they are still working side by side with one or more creative directory people to realize the desires of the client. And I would guarantee you that when the will of any of these photogs differs from the will of the AD/client, that they yield without even blinking. That's part of why they are on top.

This is pretty much a direct quote from a Joe McNally lighting workshop, as best I can remember it:

"...So what do you say if you AD comes over and says, "I'd like more shadow over here"? You say, "I agree, that's exactly what I was thinking."

Now, to a degree, he was joking, but his point rang true. You're job is to agree with the AD and do what they want. You can give all sorts of creative input, but when what you think looks good and what they think looks good differs, they're right. Every time. Doesn't matter who you are. They represent the client and the checkbook. And NEVER argue your point. That is a great way to never get hired again and to get a reputation as being difficult to work with.

Does it sound a little heartless and lacking of 'being true to your artistic self'. Yup. Sure is. But that's what happens when you turn any passion into a profitable job. You have to play the game. That's why personal projects are important and why so many photographers all do them. That's you time to be true to yourself and do whatever you want, not when you're on someone else's dime.

 

[Petraio Prime]

So today I was talking to a friend who is starting a make-up line and need photos taken for her website and stuff. She said she knew what she wanted in terms of a final outcome (something like sephora ads) basic fashion type stuff. Then she said that she works as a "creative director" at a photog studio. I wasn't familiar with the job title and she said she tells the model how to pose and changes the lighting. she said it would help so I could focus on taking the pictures.

I told her that to me, being a photographer means you do all of that already. I don't want to be there just to click a shutter. Anyone can do that. I don't like the idea of someone changing my lighting on me without telling me and stuff. She then got mad at me because I was "insulting her job" I was simply trying to say that I can do that stuff already and that being a photographer was more than pressing the shutter button. I feel like her job title strips the photographer of any artistic liscense

am i in the wrong here?

It depends on the arrangement you have. By no means is this a unique situation.

 

[Petraio Prime]

a movie is a little different lol.

she said "its like that on all pro photoshoots. Theres a photog taking pictures and someone looking at a computer seeing if the shots look good and tells the model what to do." if a photographer can't tell what looks good on their own and see what needs to be changed or can't direct a model, they should hit the books.

then she said "you have never worked on a professional photoshoot, I have so I know how things work" lol im pissed right now

She's right, though.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

I don't think it's that different from movies at all... after reading General Benson's explanation, it also sounds a lot like what a Producer does in a recording studio with the Engineer.... Producer knows what the client wants... the Engineer knows how to make it happen.

I would imaging every creative industry has people like that.

:thumbup: There is no difference. The ultimate decision comes from the man or woman with the money. Producers have a lot of weigh on a movie set. Just like they do in a recording studio.

Some directors have been known to turn their back on a movie because of decisions made by a producer or the studio that put out the movie.

The General is absolutely correct in his answers.

The only way a photog is going to do exactly as he/she likes is by staying amateur or by doing art photography. But even as an artist, you are at the mercy of the galleries to some extent. They choose whether or not to show you.

 

[Josh66]

I would imaging every creative industry has people like that.

I would say every industry is like that, period.

The customer gets what they want ... or they're not going to be the customer anymore.

They would hire you because they think you are able to produce what they want. If you can't, they'll just take the work elsewhere.

It would be different if they were just shopping around for art to hang on the office walls, but they're not.

 

[Petraio Prime]

I would imaging every creative industry has people like that.

I would say every industry is like that, period.

The customer gets what they want ... or they're not going to be the customer anymore.

They would hire you because they think you are able to produce what they want. If you can't, they'll just take the work elsewhere.

It would be different if they were just shopping around for art to hang on the office walls, but they're not.

Very true.

Being a 'pro' means doing what other people want, the way they want. That's why I'm not a pro.