RGB vs sRGB issue

[Ysarex]

what happens when you change preview "monitor color" to "internet standard"?

In that case the color does not change in photoshop, but it still appears very red once it is on the web.

So when the photo is on the web it's being displayed via web browsing software and when it's in Photoshop it's being displayed by Photoshop. It's the same photo in both applications. So what are those applications doing different that changes the appearance of the photos?

Joe

 

[Ysarex]

When that looked terrible, I restarted from my original image and tried going to "Convert to Profile" in the Edit menu. In that screen the preview showed no significant color change, but alas, when I put the picture on the web, the skin tones were as red as before.

Your answer is here. Photoshop converts well between color spaces. When you converted from aRGB to sRGB the photo didn't change it's appearance in Photoshop. And that's because the color conversion was well done and in fact the photo's colors were not changed.

You don't see a difference when inside Photoshop. You see a difference between the Photoshop display and the display in other software or other devices. If you're seeing the difference on your computer between Photoshop showing you the photo and the same photo displayed by other software then the problem is in how those two programs (PS and other software) are handling the various ICC profiles involved.

Joe

What is the fix? Do you still think I need to calibrate my display?

I don't think you need to calibrate your display; I know you need to calibrate your display. That's the first non-optional step in establishing color management control. When you look at the photo on the internet on your computer what software are you using -- what web browser?

Joe

 

[Ysarex]

When that looked terrible, I restarted from my original image and tried going to "Convert to Profile" in the Edit menu. In that screen the preview showed no significant color change, but alas, when I put the picture on the web, the skin tones were as red as before.

Your answer is here. Photoshop converts well between color spaces. When you converted from aRGB to sRGB the photo didn't change it's appearance in Photoshop. And that's because the color conversion was well done and in fact the photo's colors were not changed.

You don't see a difference when inside Photoshop. You see a difference between the Photoshop display and the display in other software or other devices. If you're seeing the difference on your computer between Photoshop showing you the photo and the same photo displayed by other software then the problem is in how those two programs (PS and other software) are handling the various ICC profiles involved.

Joe

What is the fix? Do you still think I need to calibrate my display?

I don't think you need to calibrate your display; I know you need to calibrate your display. That's the first non-optional step in establishing color management control. When you look at the photo on the internet on your computer what software are you using -- what web browser?

Joe

Also where do you upload the photo -- hosting site?

Joe

 

[KmH]

I don't see an option to Embed Color Profile when I go to save.

In Photoshop click on Edit > Assign Profile, and in the pop up dialog box select sRGB

 

[KB2]

I am using Internet Explorer 11. This has been my first photo session with the new monitor, and so far I only uploaded a "sneak peek" image to Facebook to share with the family... and immediately deleted it when I saw the color. Then, to experiment, I've uploaded it to Facebook in private mode, so only I can see it. I've checked it across my devices (laptop, iphone, ipad). It looks slightly different across devices, but only looks really red on my wide gamut monitor. Also, if I save the image as PNG, my computer uses Adobe Fireworks to open it, where it also looks red. The thumbnail images in my Windows file folders also look red.

I have spent a lot of time looking into this and reading various help pages online. I've learned that only programs like photoshop and the Windows Photo Viewer can manage the colors, whereas everything else is sRGB. This website explains it very well: WIDE GAMUT ADOBE RGB LCD Monitors Screens Troubleshooting Over Saturated sRGB Color Reviews on the Web Tutorial
I'm going to try out Firefox as the article suggests, as well as calibrate my monitor. I'll post back to let everyone know if it helps.

I also dug a little deeper on embedding the color profile, and found that I have been doing it all along. In the Save as dialog box, it does not say "Embed" but does have a checkmark next to "Color Profile" and shows the profile that I am using.

I do think I've found an explanation, even though I'm still looking for a fix. On this website: Manage colors with Photoshop I learned that going from a wider color space to a smaller one (aRGB to sRGB) the image appears less saturated and going from a smaller one to a wider one (aRGB to ProPhoto) it becomes over saturated. My theory is this: I'm converting the images perfectly in Photoshop, down to sRGB. But then my monitor sees it and is automatically "upgrading" to aRGB causing me to see the over saturation. Does that make sense? Can anyone confirm whether or not I'm right? The first article that I referenced in this post says that you can recreate this effect on any monitor by looking at a photo with an sRGB profile in Photoshop and converting it up to aRGB. Or likewise, take an aRGB and convert it to ProPhoto. I tried it and it's true, I converted my photo from aRGB to ProPhoto and it looks exactly as I'm seeing it online, so I encourage you to try it if you are interested.

 

[BBush]

Wide gamut monitors do not play well with web browsers. Most browsers do not obey your monitors color profile and when you upgrade to an Adobe capable monitor becomes much more apparent.
I have uploaded 2 photos to demonstrate this. This example is for those viewing on wide gamut monitors. Both photos are exactly the same except one has an embedded rgb profile. If you see a color difference between the two then congratulations, your web browser is reading the srgb profile. This is most apparent only on wide gamut monitors.

If there is no color difference between the two then you may have a problem.
Internet Explorer does not read profiles and I can bet if your are viewing on a wide gamut monitor you are seeing both photos at the same color and the color is wrong.

If you are using Firefox browser as recommended by the site I posted above you will see a difference.
This issue does not effect cheaper monitors, but besides following a correct color workflow it is good practice to save web images with embedded rgb profiles.

Firefox browser is recommended with custom settings for wide gamut monitors.

 

[Ysarex]

Internet Explorer does not read profiles and I can bet if your are viewing on a wide gamut monitor you are seeing both photos at the same color and the color is wrong.

Internet Explorer does read embedded ICC profiles in photos. Unless you're talking about IE version 6 which was a long long time ago.

Joe

 

[BBush]

Joe, you may be right. But I have yet to have success with IE 11 unless there is a setting that I have missed. I have tested a clean install of Windows 7 and IE 11 on ASUS Pro Art PA249 and IE did not use color profiles resulting bad color.

Found the link I was looking for. Apparently IE does read the embedded profile, but sadly ignores the monitors profile. Reports do say it is working on windows 8

Quote taken from the Microsoft community..

"Not possible unfortunately. IE9 misleadingly advertised color management, when it would only interpret the color profile of the image but ignore the color profile of the monitor. This issue has not been fixed in IE10 or IE11 to my knowledge. Of the three main browsers, only firefox displays colors correctly on a calibrated monitor."

Are there any color management options in Internet Explorer 10 or - Microsoft Community

 

[Ysarex]

I am using Internet Explorer 11. This has been my first photo session with the new monitor, and so far I only uploaded a "sneak peek" image to Facebook to share with the family... and immediately deleted it when I saw the color. Then, to experiment, I've uploaded it to Facebook in private mode, so only I can see it. I've checked it across my devices (laptop, iphone, ipad). It looks slightly different across devices, but only looks really red on my wide gamut monitor. Also, if I save the image as PNG, my computer uses Adobe Fireworks to open it, where it also looks red. The thumbnail images in my Windows file folders also look red.

I have spent a lot of time looking into this and reading various help pages online. I've learned that only programs like photoshop and the Windows Photo Viewer can manage the colors, whereas everything else is sRGB. This website explains it very well: WIDE GAMUT ADOBE RGB LCD Monitors Screens Troubleshooting Over Saturated sRGB Color Reviews on the Web Tutorial
I'm going to try out Firefox as the article suggests, as well as calibrate my monitor. I'll post back to let everyone know if it helps.

I also dug a little deeper on embedding the color profile, and found that I have been doing it all along. In the Save as dialog box, it does not say "Embed" but does have a checkmark next to "Color Profile" and shows the profile that I am using.

I do think I've found an explanation, even though I'm still looking for a fix. On this website: Manage colors with Photoshop I learned that going from a wider color space to a smaller one (aRGB to sRGB) the image appears less saturated and going from a smaller one to a wider one (aRGB to ProPhoto) it becomes over saturated. My theory is this: I'm converting the images perfectly in Photoshop, down to sRGB. But then my monitor sees it and is automatically "upgrading" to aRGB causing me to see the over saturation. Does that make sense? Can anyone confirm whether or not I'm right?

It does not make sense. Monitors do not have color spaces. There's no such thing as an aRGB or sRGB monitor.
The point of converting between color spaces is to keep the photo looking the same. For example here's a screen shot of a photo opened in PS. The original had an sRGB color space tag. I duped it twice and converted to aRGB for one dupe and ProPhoto for the second. If well converted and no coercion is required then all three photos look the same.

What you're describing sound like profile re-assignment and not conversion. Big difference there. This is what happens if you do a profile assignment between color spaces.

There is little reason you would want to do that. Conversion is normally what you should be doing.

Joe

The first article that I referenced in this post says that you can recreate this effect on any monitor by looking at a photo with an sRGB profile in Photoshop and converting it up to aRGB. Or likewise, take an aRGB and convert it to ProPhoto. I tried it and it's true, I converted my photo from aRGB to ProPhoto and it looks exactly as I'm seeing it online, so I encourage you to try it if you are interested.

 

[Ysarex]

Joe, you may be right. But I have yet to have success with IE 11 unless there is a setting that I have missed. I have tested a clean install of Windows 7 and IE 11 on ASUS Pro Art PA249 and IE did not use color profiles resulting bad color.

Found the link I was looking for. Apparently IE does read the embedded profile, but sadly ignores the monitors profile. Reports do say it is working on windows 8

Quote taken from the Microsoft community..

"Not possible unfortunately. IE9 misleadingly advertised color management, when it would only interpret the color profile of the image but ignore the color profile of the monitor. This issue has not been fixed in IE10 or IE11 to my knowledge. Of the three main browsers, only firefox displays colors correctly on a calibrated monitor."

Are there any color management options in Internet Explorer 10 or - Microsoft Community

Yep, that's better -- and the OP is working with an uncalibrated monitor which as I noted earlier is likely the root of the trouble. There is no monitor profile in place for Photoshop to use. Photoshop will not work without reading a monitor profile (feature can't be turned off) and so it will default to the generic profile installed in the system.

Joe

 

[BBush]

Yep, that's better -- and the OP is working with an uncalibrated monitor which as I noted earlier is likely the root of the trouble. There is no monitor profile in place for Photoshop to use. Photoshop will not work without reading a monitor profile (feature can't be turned off) and so it will default to the generic profile installed in the system.

Haha... I believe you found the issue. No ICC for the monitor will make a total mess out of everything.
But even with a properly calibrated monitor and a ICC monitor profile in place, any image outside of Photoshop or any other color managed application relies on color management of the program it is viewed in, and from numerous hours of testing IE on windows 7 does not display color correctly on a calibrated monitor.

 

[Ysarex]

Yep, that's better -- and the OP is working with an uncalibrated monitor which as I noted earlier is likely the root of the trouble. There is no monitor profile in place for Photoshop to use. Photoshop will not work without reading a monitor profile (feature can't be turned off) and so it will default to the generic profile installed in the system.

Haha... I believe you found the issue. No ICC for the monitor will make a total mess out of everything.
But even with a properly calibrated monitor and a ICC monitor profile in place, any image outside of Photoshop or any other color managed application relies on color management of the program it is viewed in, and from numerous hours of testing IE on windows 7 does not display color correctly on a calibrated monitor.

No argument there about IE using a monitor profile. Don't really know and couldn't care less.

Back to the OP's original problem. Photoshop expects it is being used on a calibrated display and behaves accordingly. Years ago (like a decade) there was an option to use Photoshop with color management turned off. Adobe correctly put a stop to that. If you're going to edit photos and have any hope or expectation that you're seeing X color as X color you must apply correct color management practices. Step #1 -- calibrate and profile the display.

Unfortunately most of the world otherwise remains uncalibrated and non color-managed. If you're going to place photos on the internet make sure they have an embedded ICC profile and make sure that profile is sRGB. That's not a guarantee but it's the best you can do. If you're going to view an internet image on a non color-managed display or using non color-managed or half-a**ed color-manged software you're going to see your photo garbled -- make sure it's tagged sRGB as your safest bet. If you are using non color-managed or half-a**ed color-managed software consider getting better software.

Joe

 

[BBush]

when I put the picture on the web, the skin tones were as red as before

That is why I brought up the issue with IE due to the fact that the OP is using IE 11

 

[Ysarex]

when I put the picture on the web, the skin tones were as red as before

That is why I brought up the issue with IE due to the fact that the OP is using IE 11

It's been a long time since I investigated anything having to do with IE. I knew they had added in photo profile support, but if IE doesn't read the system monitor profile, and I believe you're right it does not -- just searched although I haven't found anything recent enough yet, then that would make it inappropriate for photographic display. Even bleep bleep GIMP reads the monitor profile for Pete's sake! In that case IE would certainly be part of the OP's problem. Firefox is an easy fix for that. The other part of the OP's problem, especially given the wide gamut monitor, is that Photoshop requires a calibration profile.

Joe

 

[BBush]

You are correct. Years ago when I upgraded several monitors to wide gamut I spent many days trying to fix this problem and after all that was said and done it turned out to be Microsoft's problem. Spend $700+ on a monitor and web images looking like rainbows does not cut it. I have many years in the color print industry and this problem was the worst to figure out. I was hoping to save others many lost hours of research trying to fix a problem that lies with Microsoft