Some advice and a photo

[SoulfulRecover]

Ive heard from a few of the teachers at my school that a black and white image has to have true white and true black within the photo other wise it is considered "muddy". Is this a true stead fast rule or one of those things that people just nit pick. I dont shoot black and white all that often but did a little mini session last night that got me thinking about that rule.


Untitled by Shutter_Inc., on Flickr

 

[Designer]

While getting blacks and whites is laudable for many photographs, I think the main point they are trying to make is the photo should have a good range of tone.

 

[ronlane]

what editing software to you use? I use LR4 and with it you can hold down the Alt key and use the slider for white or black to see if there are any spots on your photo that are showing black or white. (No detail in them.) Some of the videos that I have watched suggest to do this and pull the slider to where there are specks.

 

[amolitor]

The black blacks and white whites is straight out of Ansel Adams. It's pure dogma and hasn't got anything to do with anything but one man's taste, ultimately.

It's part of a pretty specific look, one which is quite popular, mainly because Ansel Adams is popular. Amusingly, it's rather fashionable to dislike Adams, but frequently his detractors nonetheless buy into his aesthetic lock, stock, and barrel.

 

[SoulfulRecover]

thank you both for the replies! I use LR4 as well and I had no idea about that feature and Ill be sure to use it in the future. The broad range of tonalities makes perfect sense and I probably just took what was said way too literal. I will eventually be enrolled in a black and white specific class and Im sure we will go over a lot of this but I am always eager to learn a head of time

 

[Designer]

I wonder what the teachers would say about a high-key or low-key photograph? Probably give you low marks on them.

 

[SoulfulRecover]

I wonder what the teachers would say about a high-key or low-key photograph? Probably give you low marks on them.

I think it depends on the class and the assignment. Ive done both when it was appropriate and havent had any issues as long as you meet their specific requirements. Even for the drawing class I had, I did my final with a series of fashion photos and got a 99 on it.

 

[D-B-J]

In my opinion, it's about the photo. Some photos yearn for strong contrast with deep blacks and bright whites, while others look good with less tonal range. The first image below would suck without deep blacks and bright whites, and the second would suck WITH deep blacks and bright whites. It really just depends on what style best benefits the photo--some may have deep blacks and no bright whites, some may have bright whites and no deep blacks, etc. Typically when editing I can figure out what looks best (in my opinion), and then I settle with that. And it also depends on your subject--with a woman I'm not sure I'd use strong contrast, but with a man, I may.


Crashing Slowly by f_one_eight, on Flickr






Warped Reality by f_one_eight, on Flickr





Best,
Jake

 

[gsgary]

And you could always try shooting some B+W film (Agfa APX100)

 

[timor]

The black blacks and white whites is straight out of Ansel Adams. It's pure dogma and hasn't got anything to do with anything but one man's taste, ultimately.

^^^^ :thumbup:
AA sometimes is too judgemental. But then everyone can have own philisophy. Important is, if people like the picture.
I like this portrait, is quite engaging, the only thing is maybe the shadow from the nose and under the chin.

 

[SoulfulRecover]

And you could always try shooting some B+W film (Agfa APX100)

funny, I just sent off my 69 e-type to get some work done (5 speed trans, weber side draft carbs, new radiator)

The black blacks and white whites is straight out of Ansel Adams. It's pure dogma and hasn't got anything to do with anything but one man's taste, ultimately.

^^^^ :thumbup:
AA sometimes is too judgemental. But then everyone can have own philisophy. Important is, if people like the picture.
I like this portrait, is quite engaging, the only thing is maybe the shadow from the nose and under the chin.

I didnt even notice the shadow under the nose! thank you for the critique!

 

[apaflo]

Ive heard from a few of the teachers at my school that a black and white image has to have true white and true black within the photo other wise it is considered "muddy". Is this a true stead fast rule or one of those things that people just nit pick. I dont shoot black and white all that often but did a little mini session last night that got me thinking about that rule.

The issue of shadows from the nose and on the neck is well understood. You have what is called "broad lighting" because the subject has her face angled to make the side from which the light comes broadside to the lens, and the opposite side becomes smaller. The style used is "Rembrandt Lighting", which typically would be a light at 45 degrees above the subject and 45 to the side, with the effect that the nose casts a shadow onto the check.

All pretty standard stuff! In this case the contrast is fairly high (to be dramatic?), but is handled very well. The subject, and particularly her hair, is differentiated from the background very nicely. It's less differentiated in the lower 1/3rd of the image, which causes attention to remain on the subjects face and prevents her clothing from being a distraction.

I do think the glare on her face is very slightly too bright. There are pixels with values from 246 to 255, which will be virtually washed out on almost any display or print. If they were slightly less it would retain texture. Other than edges after sharpening, there should be nothing higher than a value of 246 that would have detail.

A very nicely done image!

As to needing full black and full white, that had nothing to do with Ansel Adams. He merely developed and taught a very mechanical system to decide what should be white or black (or any other tone). He didn't claim all images needed both, only that the style of photography that he most enjoyed did.

In fact it is just another one of those Rules Of Thumb used to teach beginners. It's something that a beginner can follow religiously in order to produce nice photographs. As soon as the beginner understands why it produces nice photographs, they are free to (and at least sometimes should) break the rule. For an experienced photographer it's just another parameter of every image, much the same as how much DOF, how tightly framed, or how much motion blur is allowed, or not.

 

[Derrel]

What's needed in a B&W photo depends on the subject matter, and the photographer's intent. Many beginning shooters do have a tendency toward muddy images, so instructors probably remind students about black point and white point and so on pretty frequently, as a way to frequently remind their pupils that many times, a dull,muddy image is not all that exciting.

 

[amolitor]

As to needing full black and full white, that had nothing to do with Ansel Adams. He merely developed and taught a very mechanical system to decide what should be white or black (or any other tone). He didn't claim all images needed both, only that the style of photography that he most enjoyed did.

Ah yes. Hi Floyd. The powerful need not only to be right, but for other people to be wrong. The pompous tut-tutting. I remember it all.

Merely nothing. Adams dictated taste for a generation or two of photographers, and that taste included a full range of tonal values. Of course he wasn't the first person to print blacks and whites. Of course he wasn't the only person to think that was a nice look. But as dogma it comes from Adams and his teachings. It is, basically, the influence of Adams that results in the widespread and wrong view that every black and white photograph must have the full range.

And I'm out, because I know this guy, and he's just going to keep on coming back with longer and longer posts with more and more attitude, complaining about being attacked and so on.

 

[robbins.photo]

Ive heard from a few of the teachers at my school that a black and white image has to have true white and true black within the photo other wise it is considered "muddy". Is this a true stead fast rule or one of those things that people just nit pick. I dont shoot black and white all that often but did a little mini session last night that got me thinking about that rule.


Untitled by Shutter_Inc., on Flickr

The only "steadfast" rule of photography is that like any other artform, there are no rules. There are a lot of good ideas that will generally make your images more appealing to a wider audience, but in the final analysis all that really matters is if you like the image. Just my 2 cents worth of course, YMMV