Sony mirrorless

[usayit]

Looks like Sony too is joining the mirrorless compact design similar to Olympus and Panasonic. I predict someone will finally produce a full frame sensored version of the mirrorless cameras in the not to distant future.

Sony PMA 2010 Alpha concepts outed - SlashGear

So we have Olympus, Panasonic, the Odd Ricoh, and recently Samsung. Sony soon to be added to the list. Kinda like that people are finally thinking beyond the age old mirror box design of SLRs past.


[EDIT]
I know Leica M9 is mirrorless and full frame... What I meant was someone other than Leica Rangefinder.

 

[skieur]

Yes, Sony seems to be expanding in all directions: the mirrorless DSLR, use of the 3D chip and 3D SLRS, and what they consider to be the "mainstream" which they see as 15 plus frames per second burst mode, in camera GPS and compass info., in camera HDR shooting and blending, and in camera panorama shooting and stitching of shots. In the video area on the same camera is full HD at 60 fps or higher, stereo sound, fast autofocus, liveview, and image stabilization even while walking and shooting video at the same time.

skieur

 

[pez]

It has an APS sensor. Too bad Pentax doesn't do this with an EVF- would sell.

 

[Dwig]

Looks like Sony too is joining the mirrorless compact design similar to Olympus and Panasonic. ...

Since you want to keep the Leica models (M8, M8.2, & M9) out of the discussion you should refer to the class as Electronic Viewfinder models. Perhaps using the somewhat frequently used term EVIL (Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens).

It will be interesting to see what Sony comes up with. Their presentation as PMA was merely a statement that "we are working on it". The mockups are not likely to resemble the actual product any more than Olympus' orange brick mockup.

 

[Dwig]

... mirrorless DSLR...

A rather nonsensical term. Any SLR, digital or film, has to have a mirror. Without one it can't be an SLR. SLR means Single Lens Reflex; that Reflex as in "reflection" off the surface of a mirror. There can not be such a thing as a "mirrorless DSLR".

 

[Dwig]

It has an APS sensor. Too bad Pentax doesn't do this with an EVF- would sell.

This is what Pentax's partner, Samsung, is doing.

We may well see a Samsung/Pentax team with much the same pattern as the Panasonic/Olympus team. One member concentrating only on the new EVIL configuration and the other moving slower with EVIL models while retaining a position in the DSLR arena.

 

[Sw1tchFX]

It has an APS sensor. Too bad Pentax doesn't do this with an EVF- would sell.

That's basically what the Samsung is.



I think that it's interesting that 3 of the players in this are more consumer electronics oriented than imaging.

 

[usayit]

I think that it's interesting that 3 of the players in this are more consumer electronics oriented than imaging.

Its no surprise. Cameras are now consumer electronics not really a speciality item. Just like Leica's M8/M9 is firmly tied to the past camera design such as the M3, I think Canon and Nikon (others too) are also rooted because of past experience and expertise. These companies (well Sony has the minolta group) are thinking out of the box; no ties to the past, and an R&D department with a fresh set of eyes.

Remember the EVF discussions we had a year or so ago? How many said it would never fly and that mirror box was the only real solution? How about those that said they would never need live-view or video in cameras? Photogs too are rooted in the past. (me included).

I for one was skeptical too... but I also have an interest in how people apply technology in a smart/intuitive way (we have a tendency to just throw tech at problems). I truly thought that optical (remember rangefinder == bright optical finder) was the only solution until I tried the Panasonic G1 and the EVF. or EVIL ... Not there yet but I can see a definite direction.


Side note: I love Leica (except price). Unfortunately, I think these "EVIL" cameras could potentially spell disaster for them.

 

[Derrel]

Looks like Sony too is joining the mirrorless compact design similar to Olympus and Panasonic. I predict someone will finally produce a full frame sensored version of the mirrorless cameras in the not to distant future.

Sony PMA 2010 Alpha concepts outed - SlashGear

So we have Olympus, Panasonic, the Odd Ricoh, and recently Samsung. Sony soon to be added to the list. Kinda like that people are finally thinking beyond the age old mirror box design of SLRs past.


[EDIT]
I know Leica M9 is mirrorless and full frame... What I meant was someone other than Leica Rangefinder.

Yeah, Leica rangefinder .
The differentiating thing between the EVIL or electronic viewfinder interchangeable lens camera is that is is truly a "new" camera design, while the rangefinder camera design dates to the 1930's,and is basically dead now, except for the inventing firm's handful of Leica M-series cameras.

These new cameras do not incorporate a rangefinder of any type, the way Leicas do, and they do not have the user focusing through a small peep-hole optical finder, like a Leica uses. Instead, the EVIL type of camera uses a real-time video feed coming right from the lens, so it offers a few advantages a rangefinder Leica does not offer. The mirrorless compact "EVIL" cameras have have so far, only proven themselves to be decent sellers in the Japanese home market, which is a fairly small camera market, but one where innovation and physically small and compact products do well. As some US industry observers have remarked, the US market does not have the same fascination with compactness and miniaturization that the Japanese have shown; American and European camera buyers so far have shown little interest in the EVIL cameras.

I don't agree that "people" are 'thinking beyond the age old mirror box design of SLRs past' as much as the camera makers are desperately trying to find new ways to fuel growth in a market that has almost reached saturation. The camera business occasionally needs to re-invent the market, to sell millions of new units, and with d-slr sales and compact camera sales flat or declining, inventing a new kind of camera an convincing consumers they need something new is what the camera makers desperately want to do to boost profits now that the camera biz growth is flattening out. One of the last really huge,huge sales years was 1984, when the Canon AE-1 Program helped push 35mm SLR sales units to unheard of heights that were not realized again until 2009,when low-cost d-slr cameras finally hit a price point that millions of consumers could finally afford. Unfortunately for the camera makers, they do not earn a lot of profit off of Nikon D3000 and Canon Rebel customers or sales of that type of lower-end gear, so if an entirely new class of cameras can be developed and customers convinced they "need" the items, the camera makers will be in hog heaven. But it is not "people" who are thinking beyond the most popular and proven camera design of the last 50 years, as much as an industry trying to re-sell everybody replacement cameras.

The precedent is very clear: after the huge success of the Canon AE-1 and AE-1 Program, as well as the millions of new Nikon, Pentax, Minolta, and other automated 35mm SLRs in the early 1980's, by the end of the decade the same camera companies convinced users they need a new, small "super-zoom" camera. Those became the norm for a while, and everybody had to re-buy to satisfy their camera "needs". The photo biz works like that: a product is intro'd, sold heavily, and then on a decade-by-decade basis, another product category is developed and the camera makers try their hardest to get the new category to be the next best thing.

Will a FF EVIL camera appear within the next few years? I highly doubt it. Costs would be pretty high for the sensor, and lenses would need to be larger than for the current 110 film format size found in most EVIL cameras.
Sometimes the new camera designs die off quite quickly. Like the disc format; Kodak's instant film cameras, Kodak's old 828 format, the 110 film format, the APS-C film format that basically ruined Minolta for a decade;the 126 cartridge-loading format, Yashica's attempt at a half-frame 35mm in the Samurai series, the Nimslo 3-D format,etc. It's not clear that a FF mirrorless camera will be made in the forseeable future, and it's not even clear if the Micro 4/3 format (and other similar formats) or the EVIL camera will "take" in markets outside of Japan...

The camera makers are going to give it a go, for sure...but it could be as big a bust as the APS-C film format was....that went absolutely nowhere. Digital killed it, well and thoroughly. I personally think cell phone camera development presents the biggest threat to the Micro 4/3 and EVIL cameras in general. What's odd is that Samsung's new cameras do not conform to the Micro 4/3 format--their cameras are not actually M4/3, and use their own,unique lens mount...the Ricoh cameras use interchangeable lens and sensor module PAIRS, with the sensor riding with the lens, and the body being a mere receiver, with no sensor in the body; and Nikon is reputed to have its own small, EVIL-format sensor and lens system ready for a 2010 premier...

Given that the lowest-cost FF sensor camera is a Sony priced at $1900, and followed by Canon and Nikon FF bodies at $2499 and $2800, I just do not see a FF interchangeable lens, mirrorless camera within the near future...I simply do not think the user base exists,and the sensor costs would make the camera pretty expensive. The multiple, different, incompatible formats that Samsung, Ricoh,and Nikon (apparently) are pursuing indicates to me that the camera makers do not know what anybody wants--except in the Japan home market, where mini-everythings are seen as cute and desirable.

In Japan, colored cameras are selling well....in the USA, not so much. In most of the Asian world, the Nokia phone is a staple, but in the USA their phones are viewed as "gangster" phones,and Nokia is barely on the shelves, despite being a huge seller in the multiple Asian markets of the world.

 

[usayit]

huh?

Nothing said hasn't been already regurgitate either here or on the internet.. somewhere.

Kinda reminds me of the articles ranting against those "toy" cameras before and during the Korean war. Those so called toy cameras being the 35mm kind.



Oh yes... I think I know the difference between a Rangfinder and EVF. :er: Hence why I specifically excluded it from discussion.

 

[pez]

As soon as the EVF can be made good enough to fine-focus, and shutter lag/autofocus challenges are ironed out, the mirror box will be threatened with extinction. And it is NOT impossible. Companies working on this now will be the leaders tomorrow.

 

[Sw1tchFX]

As soon as the EVF can be made good enough to fine-focus, and shutter lag/autofocus challenges are ironed out, the mirror box will be threatened with extinction. And it is NOT impossible. Companies working on this now will be the leaders tomorrow.

I'm guessing you haven't used a G1, GH1, or GF1..

Those three cameras are for all intents and purposes as fast as a DSLR and in some cases faster, especially in low light focusing. The GF1 with 20 f/1.7 can AF and shoot in dim light faster than my D700 with 50mm f/1.4, and tat the same time more accurately too. 0_0

Fine focusing, ask anyone with a m4/3rds camera and they'll probably tell you that it's easier. turn the focus ring and you're instantly looking at a 100% crop of whatever your focusing on. It's trivial to get absolutely perfect manual focus every time on m4/3rds with fast lenses. The same can't be said for a DSLR, especially ones with pinhole viewfinders like the D3000 and Rebel series bodies, and if your eyesight isn't the best...well good luck.


Granted, the mirror less cameras suck at tracking movement, but that's not what they're built for. If you're shooting sports, you should be using a DSLR anyway.

If you can, check out a Panasonic m4/3rds camera in a store, you'll be surprised, it's an incredibly capable system, and if it continues to be as popular as it has been, my guess is in 5 years, high end compacts ala G11 and low end DSLRs ala D3000, will be replaced by these EVIL cameras.

 

[pez]

As soon as the EVF can be made good enough to fine-focus, and shutter lag/autofocus challenges are ironed out, the mirror box will be threatened with extinction. And it is NOT impossible. Companies working on this now will be the leaders tomorrow.

I'm guessing you haven't used a G1, GH1, or GF1..

Those three cameras are for all intents and purposes as fast as a DSLR and in some cases faster, especially in low light focusing. The GF1 with 20 f/1.7 can AF and shoot in dim light faster than my D700 with 50mm f/1.4, and tat the same time more accurately too. 0_0

Fine focusing, ask anyone with a m4/3rds camera and they'll probably tell you that it's easier. turn the focus ring and you're instantly looking at a 100% crop of whatever your focusing on. It's trivial to get absolutely perfect manual focus every time on m4/3rds with fast lenses. The same can't be said for a DSLR, especially ones with pinhole viewfinders like the D3000 and Rebel series bodies, and if your eyesight isn't the best...well good luck.


Granted, the mirror less cameras suck at tracking movement, but that's not what they're built for. If you're shooting sports, you should be using a DSLR anyway.

If you can, check out a Panasonic m4/3rds camera in a store, you'll be surprised, it's an incredibly capable system, and if it continues to be as popular as it has been, my guess is in 5 years, high end compacts ala G11 and low end DSLRs ala D3000, will be replaced by these EVIL cameras.

Hmm, wonder how the new Samsung fares- the larger sensor is a big plus. Has anyone reviewed it yet?

 

[Garbz]

Is it a big plus though? One of the points of this is portability. Larger sensor means larger lenses. I have strongly considered the Olympus EP-2 with the tiny pancake lens for exactly this reason.

 

[usayit]

Larger sensor means larger lenses. .

Not necessarily.... although I don't know all the technicalities. All Leica M-mount glass (Zeiss and Voigtlander included) were made for full frame 35mm negative.... physically smaller than most Canon and Nikkor lenses. The manual focus 40mm Pentax f/2.8 Pancake is about the same size as the Olympus Pancake. Of course there are autofocus mechanisms to package but I don't think it makes that big of a difference.

What makes a bigger difference is the amount of elements and the size of them. Typically, larger the max aperture.. the larger the lens. My Noctilux f1 and Nokton f/1.2 are HUGE compared to my f/2.5 lenses.