Suggestion to open a critique subsection

Overread

hmm I recognise this place! And some of you!
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Ok so as part of an intent to reduce some of the pressure in the, overused, beginners subsection (an act that will help beginners as a reduction in new thread generation will only help their threads stay on the first page, and get noticed) I'd suggest that we approach the (controversial) area and open up a critique section on the site.

I know in the past TPF has had this and that in the past it led to fights and general headaches for the mods and members, however I would put forth the argument that by not having a subsection we have not avoided the problem.

Instead what happens is threads are posted with "C&C" and various other labels, in the title to ask for critique; and that in those threads (esp when the dreaded W word is mentioned) we still get the same fights and arguments that we'd have if they were in their own dedicated subsection.


So from a forum social and mod workload* point of view having a dedicated critique subsection, as I see it, can't make any problem any worse than it already is under the current setup. What it will enable, however, is a hopeful reduction in the use of the beginners section and the pooling of similar threads into a single subsection grouping.




Note I am aware that we have a lot of subsections already and that adding them is not done lightly, in view of our large forum organisation. To that I would suggest two possible resolutions to this:

1) Supporting vendors get a subsection as part of the site; however looking at these sections they are not strongly used (only one vendor is using their subsection to any great degree) and thus the vendors could easily be combined into a single "supporting vendors" subsection without incurring any disadvantage to what they have at present.

2) An interface more akin to what Photography on-the Net (and other sites) use in their "talk about photography" heading as seen here:
Canon Digital Photography Forums - Powered by vBulletin
the grouping still divides the subsections into easily viewable links, but also reduces their space and bulk on the page significantly - making the site far more viewable at a glance (though I'd argue that the larger typefont that TPF uses would make this easier still over the smaller POTN font).


*accepting of course that there will be a teething time when workload will increase as initial threads are moved into the new section and members get used to using the new section and moving out of other areas.
 
My suggestion, would be to make the General Gallery, the critique forum, with all the supposed "galleries" below it.

But then, everyone seems to feel free to CC anywhere an image is posted, whether it's asked for or not.
 
My suggestion, would be to make the General Gallery, the critique forum, with all the supposed "galleries" below it.

But then, everyone seems to feel free to CC anywhere an image is posted, whether it's asked for or not.

Strictly speaking critical comments can be given in any of the galleries barring the "just for fun" section - even without the original poster specifically asking for the critique. Personally though I'd keep the general gallery as general - I think it would confuse people to have a crit section and then a list of subsections without a generalist area (since some shots will not easily fit into one of the existing subcategories).
 
Hmmm...I just post whatever in the general gallery. I treat it as a general critique section, since i get lambasted if I post in an image in the most popular, most viewed forum.
 
Overread, I applaud your work and effort here, but we need to wait for the Forum Militia to weigh in on who, when,where, and how C&C may be solicited. Did you consult the Officer of the Day about this suggestion? Were you granted permission to speak freely? If not, how do you explain why you feel entitled to buck the rules the Forum Militia love so much?
 
Derrel - a commander never asks his troops which way to go ;)

Also it was a bacon sandwich
 
As a eager noob who welcomes crititques and whatnot, I'm trying to advance my skills. I'm learning a lot just by posting on other people's work. If there was an entire area dedicated for Critique, that would be an immense organizational job I agree, but I think it would be welcomed. But as a newcomer i'd be confused.
If I have a wildlife shot I want critique on where do I put it? In said folder labeled "Critique" or in the Wildlife folder and ask for comments?
Hmmm...
 
As I see it either of your approaches would be valid. However whilst critical comments can be asked for and given in the galleries its not their only function, they also serve to pool together certain subject groupings and also generally share info about them (you'll note that most of the galleries are actually more like subsections and several have threads dedicated to the subject rather than to photos).*

The idea of a critique section though is to pool those specifically after crits above all else and to also provide a resource for others - as well as taking pressure off the beginners section. It also helps to provide a good central spot for those wanting to give crits - making it easy to find those wanting their assistance.

* In light of that I've often thought the galleries needs a renaming and rebranding to reflect that the sections also welcome general topic threads within their chosen area and not just photo threads
 
I'm not against opening an area/subsection/forum and calling it the Critique Forum. I believe previous efforts failed due to trying to impose guidelines - some strict, some general. The membership bucked, in both cases, and the final analysis seemed to be just keep the forum design in its current state, while creating a subforum for beginners to keep them from flooding the galleries with requests for "C&C" on their new snaps of lightposts and brick walls. The trend seemed to be that the majority of newbies will post wherever the busiest subsection seems to be, in order to get attention - and feedback. "Feedback" is usually what a beginner really wants, but they use the phrase C&C more often than not. The waters get muddied. The Critique forums have closed.

However, the subject continues to come up and the forum is here for all. So - let's hear your specific ideas of how a Crit forum should work. Do you want stickied guidelines? Do you want the moderators to be the Crit forum police, and move threads that don't meet the guidelines? Or do you want to just put a new subforum out there, with a general explanation of its function, and be looser (read: tolerant) of who posts there? If you want the former, type up your guidelines and let's see them. If you want the latter, that's a fairly easy task to pop in. Where do you think something called "Critique Forum" should reside? Outside the Gallery forum?

Kick around some details, and let's see what you've got. :) Have at it!
 
I'd like to see it with loose guidelines.
Beginners with lampost, brick wall and sky shots could also learn from better images, and wouldn't need to go "somewhere else" to see them.
Beginners, can learn from commenting on "better" images, by challenging themselves to think about the image, and think about how to put "feelings" into words.
More experienced photographers can sometimes learn from what the less experienced see. It is also an opportunity to "explain" why the photog did something, which spurns conversation, debate, and learning, for everyone. This all precludes the posters to actually want to learn by seeing others work, rather than the all to often selfserving manner in which people use the forum. (only post to get feedback for their stuff, and never actually browse the forum, which is all too common)

I think the greater amount of policing, if you go through with this, is the need for moderators to move all the C&C threads out of the beginners forum, to the new Crit forum.

I do think that the beginner forum should be used strickly for the 5 a day threads asking what camera to buy, what lens to get next, cheap triggers, cheap studio lights, etc.
Moving the CC threads out of there would allow all the "tech" threads to stay on the front page of the forum longer, for others to read that have the same question.
If you think about it, there are basically only 5 questions repeatedly asked in the beginer forum.
 
I'd agree with Bitter - loose guidelines of use mixed with a sticky on giving beginners advice on what to post to help get C&C (something similar, but a bit shorter and containing more arty references, to the link in my sig). That way you've the loose rules to keep the section on topic, combined with a sticky that can be used to quickly give advice to people when they post (remembering of course that stickies exist to be linked to rather than spotted and read ;)).

That way we also get around the enforcement problems that, in the past, crippled and pulled the section apart.
 
Yes. A sticky, which I believe is to be seen and read prior to posting, rather than linked too, but that speaks to laziness.
But yeah, a sticky that is like yours (overread), but less wordy, and gets to the point quickly as to not lose the audience of the short attention spanned, that describes the best way to make a post to get comments. Including stating your intent, which I'll argue is sometimes optional, when you are trying to see if people get your intent by viewing the pic. Sometimes it's valid, especially for beginers, because if there was intent, and it is stated, you can speak to the success of that intent, or failure.
 
I think we need a huge dose of tolerance on what is posted where, and on where a person asks for C&C. I'm absolutely sick and tired of the way a select few individuals constantly harp on people for posting something in what they consider the incorrect area, especially since these select few are often blasting newcomers to the forum who are 1) unfamiliar with expectations of TPF members who will be crucifying them and 2) rightly uncertain of the interpretation of the forum description blurbs, which do NOT SPECIFICALLY state, "do not ask for C&C". We had an instance last week that was just pathetic...and Terri is the one who hit upon what the issue really was. A relatively new member here, with his first set of studio lighting equipment (monolighrs, umbrellas, etc.) posted in Beyond The Basics, and asked for C&C of a studio-lighted portrait he had made. He was immediately jumped by two self-appointed forum police, and then repeatedly dogged, post after post, for his "transgression". And yet, the issue Terri brings up is that what most beginners want is "feedback". I simply do not understand why there are a handful of people here who are so,so insistent on trying to force their mental conception of where is it allowable to ask for "feedback" on an image when the request is made using the abbreviation C&C?

These repeated attempts to proscribe,limit, and force the posting behavior of potentially thousands of posters, many of them newcomers, is doomed to failure. And I have to ask, "Why? Why do you want to try and enforce your anal retentive posting behavior on the multitudes? is it so you can become some type of lazy C&C provider who can get his daily "fix" of C&C-giving gratification, all in one location,with no effort? Personal power trip? Having a justification backed up by rules so that you can ream out newbies who accidentally post in the "wrong" forum?

The forum has so,so,so many sub-sections that I do not even bother to read the forum by sub-section: I read and use it via Active Topics and New Posts. WIth as many sub-sections as there are, the chances that a new poster will make a posting "error" and be jumped on by a handful of regulars is pretty high. I think it is absolutely, totally asinine to limit C&C, or feedback, or comments about posted photos, to specific sub-sections of a photo forum. No, let me restate that: It is absolutely moronic to try and limit feedback, C&C, or comments about posted photos, to specific sub-sections of a photo forum. Asking for commentary on studio lighting in the Beyond The Basics forum seems perfectly legitimate to me. How is a person supposed to solicit feedback or C&C or comments on an advanced technique without posting a photo example? Why have so,so many sub-forums? Why try and limit and force the hand of posters? Why not go with the flow a bit more, instead of trying to channel the flow where it does not want to willingly go?
 

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