The Art Of Critique

[Alpha]

Ah, I get it now.

This forum boils down to the following:

Anyone that posts an image for critique is actually saying "ALPHA! I specifically demand that you, and you personally, tell me how to improve."

At which point, Alpha rears up his mighty head and roars "How dare you suck in my presence!?!?!?!"

God that clears up just SO much for me.

No. They're not saying me specifically. But they are asking someone...anyone...who knows what they're talking about to respond. And we're getting fewer and farther between.

My gripe is not with people sucking. My gripe is with people who, instead of trying to learn on their own and then coming with specific questions, expect unconditional assistance from people who have.

 

[Alpha]

Well firstly you might not have to write a whole book on each of hte points, but you could at least take the time to tell the person where the faults are?
That is at least showing them where their problems are and from there they can research around if they are keen enough - especially if others also take the time to say "yes the lighting is comming from the wrong angle". However I would consider it important to also take the time to point out where the person has done right (even if you think that they have hardly done anything worth mentioning right) as many will have just got thier camera, gone out and shot. That is where I started - no boring books or research, out with the camera and shooting. It was only later through the comments, crits and praise of others (pro praise that is, family and friends can often give "false" praise) that I have started to develope and also learn more. I have also started to research more into my topic.
This I think is a very different mindset to the way = perhapse - that you or people who take SLR traditional shots approached the hobby - where each shot cost - but this mindset is now the one of those with a digital - not really lazy but taking a different direction to the same learnings

Leaning on the changing face of photography as a crutch is no excuse for not being willing to take the time and learn on one's own. The internet does not obviate the use or need for hard work, practice, and other forms of study. And I'm sorry but there are few people I'll oblige who think it's fair practice to take their camera out of the box and then wait with open hands for personal instruction without so much as reading the manual.

 

[Overread]

Leaning on the changing face of photography as a crutch is no excuse for not being willing to take the time and learn on one's own. The internet does not obviate the use or need for hard work, practice, and other forms of study. And I'm sorry but there are few people I'll oblige who think it's fair practice to take their camera out of the box and then wait with open hands for personal instruction without so much as reading the manual.

hmm I think we both have very different views - but to close for me I would like to know how you can tell - over the internet - how much effort a person has put into a shot? For me it is often hard to tell - true there are many who say
"Just got my DSLR and here are my shots" *posts 20 shots* "what do you think?"
Which might mean that they have done no work at all but spending the money and pressing the shutter button == and if the shots were less than good you might be lead to further think that. But it could be the case that they simply have not mentioned the 5 books and 10 websites that they read before and just did not cotten onto.
Some people can't learn from books, they need practice and comments to learn.

 

[Alpha]

hmm I think we both have very different views - but to close for me I would like to know how you can tell - over the internet - how much effort a person has put into a shot? For me it is often hard to tell - true there are many who say
"Just got my DSLR and here are my shots" *posts 20 shots* "what do you think?"
Which might mean that they have done no work at all but spending the money and pressing the shutter button == and if the shots were less than good you might be lead to further think that. But it could be the case that they simply have not mentioned the 5 books and 10 websites that they read before and just did not cotten onto.
Some people can't learn from books, they need practice and comments to learn.

This is a much easier call than you're making it out to be. If your composition is poor AND your subject is uninteresting AND your exposure is wrong AND you used the wrong depth of field AND your post-processing is terrible or nonexistent, then chances are you haven't practiced or studied much. If you have practiced a lot and studied a lot, and you still make all of these fundamental errors, then your problem is in all likelihood beyond what I can help with, at least over the internet. I don't, in any way, represent all of the kind, learned souls on this board, of which there are about 5 or 10. If they think they can put out a house fire with a garden hose, that's their prerogative. But it's just not worth it to me.

 

[manaheim]

I will take my lead from your own signature about being honest and direct. Mannheim. What an amazing attitude. You come onto the site every few months, decide what is right and wrong, toss around a few BS comments and then crown yourself as the arbiter of all that is right and true.

When you have put in the amount of effort, time and skill as Alpha has, then your comments will have some validity.

Alpha has contributed ten times what you have, is being honest with you about how he feels and you respond by derogating him. You are just intellectually dishonest and your behaviour makes me extremely happy you are not here the vast amount of time.

Every few months? I think you have me majorly confused with someone else. Esp since the bulk of my posts revolve entirely around peoples (and my) images, and to the best of my memory I have never commented on the actual goings-on in the forum in my life, but whatever.

I also don't quite understand how longevity gives you the right to basically call people morons, but whatever. I also don't understand how my lack of longevity precludes me from expressing an opinion, but hey.. whatever!

In truth, I was trying to be somewhat satiric to make a point. I think I did say before that it doesn't bug me a whit if someone tears into me, but whatever.

You know... like... whatever.

 

[Early]

As a general rule, I won’t critique a photo unless I would have an idea on how I would improve it for myself, personally. It’s only an opinion, and it doesn’t mean I like it or dislike it.

PS I won't comment on a photo that doesn't do anything for me, so please don't ask if I like it. For instance, I'm usually not into flower pics. They have to be really well composed or well color co-ordinated.

 

[Samriel]

This is a very interesting topic. Being basically both a forum and photography noob, I'll try to be as short and precise as possible.

@ Art of Critique
The model Alpha posted seems good to me. I'd like to put it in a more general flow:

1. Definition of purpose / intent - What do you want to show with the photograph? I think everybody has some kind of idea (be it rational or emotional) when she/he takes a picture. This should be defined by the photographer in the post where the critique request was posted.
2. Technical details - How good was the machine used to achieve that purpose (DOF, exposure, post-processing etc.)
3. Frame contents - How were the objects in the frame used to achieve that purpose (composition, subject, lightning etc.)?

@Forum & Critique

First, please keep in mind that there are very few things I dislike more than elitarism (did I spell that correctly?). That been said, although this thread does at times smell of it, I have to say that I generally agree with the assessment that the critique on this forum is mostly very poor and not constructive. I've been here since December, and although I'd like to, I haven't posted a photo for critique yet. One of the main reasons is that I see bad photos get "Great shot!" critique. While this might encourage people to shoot more and get better, in the age where everyone has a digital camera and thinks his 3200ISO, 12MP, 18x zoom will give him great photos, just by pressing the shutter in Auto mode, it also encourages a lot of people to post everything they take without really giving it any though and get more "Great shot!"s. I'd rather have Alpha (or anybody else) tell me I suck, if he is in some way qualified to do so, that 100 unqualified people tell me I have a great shot. Of course, in a open forum like this, I do think this way of thinking might be mistaken, so I just don't post any photos, and don't demand such standards. I do completely agree with the honesty policy which Manahaim wrote - it may be harsh at times (although I think if you call yourself adult you should be able to cope with it), but it is the most efficient way. If it was a real class, you could judge if the person needs harsh critique or a gentler touch in order to improve, but on the internet the only think you can do is give the truth in a polite and civil package.

 

[manaheim]

^^^ really well said, and I totally agree. Nice post.

 

[Battou]

Seriously guys, there are a deisent enough group of capable crits amung the forum, If you really want something put threw some serious crit work, Find some of them and get it done VIA PM and let the forum be a social gathering place for EGO stroking. I don't often expect any thing more than " I like", "Don't like" "too Noisy", "it's boring" and stuff like that in open forum. Some times I'll slap a "C&C" on a thread title and see what comes of it but if I want it done for real I will PM some one I know can do it theuroughly.

 

[DWS]

it's hard to imagine another forum being added to the site, but perhaps a "technical only" for purely objective and constructive posting?.....there are times when I want to read serious comments only, and not have to sort through a series of flame posts

 

[Alpha]

it's hard to imagine another forum being added to the site, but perhaps a "technical only" for purely objective and constructive posting?.....there are times when I want to read serious comments only, and not have to sort through a series of flame posts

If it's okay with everyone, I'd like to nip this discussion in the bud. We've made several attempts at designing and redesigning critique sections of the forum, including the aforementioned "technical only" section. They've never worked out as planned, and to the best of my knowledge any plans for new critique sections are indefinitely on hold until further notice.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

The system we have right now works fine.
If you want a crit, ask for one when you post a picture.
Just remember that crits come in two flavours - 'useful' and 'waste of space'.
You decide which one is which. If it helps you then it's useful. If it doesn't then ignore it.
Simple.
If you don't get anything useful or you don't get a response then you could try asking someone for one by PM.

Forums set up solely for the purpose of critique have either proved to be a lot of thankless hard work for the people in charge - or have ended up as a showcase for egos.
But nothing in this life is certain and who knows? One day another attempt might be made here

 

[abraxas]

Most of us are in our underpants anyway. How can you take that serious?

 

[Samriel]

Most of us are in our underpants anyway. How can you take that serious?

I don't think everybody expects to receive ultra-pro level critique here. I guess what people are looking for here is a not as much a mentorship, but rather a constructive comradship.
I think the only think to do it is try to critique (constructively) as much as one can, and hope people pick up the trend. In an open forum you can probably only lead by example.

 

[DWS]

I think the only think to do it is try to critique (constructively) as much as one can, and hope people pick up the trend. In an open forum you can probably only lead by example.

I'll agree with that.......and when someone flies off on a bashing, they get their knees lopped off....swiftly