The Art Of Critique

[The_Traveler]

however it was only (at the time) through the comments of others and through not only their comments, but advice and enthusiasm that I improved to where I am today. I still have a long way to go though.

People keep saying this place has lost its standards and that it is becoming full of new people who are less than brilliant - that is not bad that is good. That means we have many who are willing to learn - and yes they will be posting "snaps" and bad photography which is where the more experienced should get up and start helping them - rather than complaining that we are not getting high quality material - that is not why I am here and I doubt its what the forum is based on. If you are after art and only the best then see the homepage of a pro or a darn good amature = for forums expect to come for help and don't begrudge those who also come seeking for it

I used to teach and I loved to get students who wanted to learn - like you. I was lucky to be in a situation where most of the students wanted to learn, the administration agreed on the importance of learning. Students who screwed around were not thought to be cool and lousy teachers didn't get much attention or respect.

This is a different situation and I think that is what the OP was about. Because I love to teach and believe I have something to offer, I spend a fair amount of time searching out those posters who actually want to get better to help them improve where I am able.

I have long since given up expecting that the administration agrees with me or cares about what I care about.
I try to ignore the ***holes as much as possible but I refuse to take the slightest bit of crap.
Being unpleasant to those who deserve it is my reward.

 

[Overread]

The thing is this - the mods are not hear to enforce standards of photography or of politness on us but rather more to keep the peace - if you keep trying to fight and lash out all you look to outsiders is one and the same with the ones you are fighting.
Some times you have to take insults from others - granted in real life you might not take an insult from a 14 year old - but this is the internet where such things matter not. Best ways to deal with it are to either report the post to a mod; answer back in a calm and focused manner without openly attacking the opposition to you or ignor the attack completly

 

[KOrmechea]

I feel there are some things that need to be addressed here. So, I'll do so.

Before I make that decision, I am asking those educators, those knowledgeable photographers, how to give a good critique.

From other posts you've made in the thread (and others), it seems to me you know how to give a good critique. How do you do it (I'm sure members of those other, less childish forums have taught you something...)?

Frankly, I've mostly stopped giving critiques because... b) I'm really quite insulted that someone would spent so little time learning their craft and their art and then even have the nerve to ask why their photo looks like ****.

People come here to learn. How is refusing to share your seemingly superior knowledge conducive to that? How is this attitude helping the situation of this forum?

I am not looking for the arguments that seem to lead to the closing of threads and the banning of people. I am only wishing to find photographic inspiration. I don't know why you would want to get into this conversation.

When you post in a public forum, you're inviting people to reply to you. All people. You can say you don't want a certain argument, but your reactions to those who are giving it says otherwise. From the get-go, your tone has been condescending. When people share ideas that contrast your own, you tell them they have no place in this discussion. Is there a problem with hearing the other side?

If the mods would actually set an example rather than letting this just happen, there is some chance that this place won't lose all the decent photogs it has.

Decent photographers? Are those the ones supporting the OP? Because from what I've seen in this thread, many of them refuse to share their own work or to critique that of others. How is that helping improve this forum? Why don't you set an example (because clearly you have a lot of knowledge and experience to share)? Why is change always up to a forum's moderating team?

There may be problems with this forum, but from what I've seen here those that are quick to point them out also refuse to help in their solutions.

Edit:

I apologize if this came across as a little mean, rude, sarcastic, targeted, or whatever. Essentially, the whole point of the post is in the last sentence.

 

[AndrewG]

The essence of critique on a forum such as this is very much a two-way street; if a picture is offered up for an honest appraisal then the photographer must be willing to accept criticism which may, upon first reading, appear harsh.
The observer, on the other hand, must be able to substantiate his critique in a positive way with suggestions for improvement-if necessary-so that the photographer can learn and advance his craft. If the photographer takes offense at an honest, informed and polite criticism then he should not have presented his work in the first place; defensiveness won't get you anywhere.
If someone says my picture is crap I want to know why so the next one won't be-vacuous platitudes are of no use to anyone and both encourage complacency and stifle knowledge and growth.

 

[Don Kondra]

Thank you Andrew, well said..

Cheers, Don

 

[One Sister]

You can say you don't want a certain argument, but your reactions to those who are giving it says otherwise. From the get-go, your tone has been condescending. When people share ideas that contrast your own, you tell them they have no place in this discussion. Is there a problem with hearing the other side?

I beg your pardon, but I did not invite argument. I only invited intelligent discourse. No one shared an idea different from my own, in fact the rudest of them hardly shared an idea at all. He became belligerent because I don't care to play games here. I conceded to the majority and only cared to reach out to those who were serious about the craft. I believe your remark smacked with a condescension that mine did not. If you think there is another "side" here, you are not understanding my point. I only wanted to discuss photographic skills and artistry. How can you have another side?

Andrew, I thank you for your comment and hope to benefit from your critique in the future.

 

[manaheim]

Hm. I'm going to be pretty blunt here. I don't usually do that.

I actually find this thread pretty ridiculous, mainly because of some of the people posting on it and their postures. Frankly, I think there is a lot of self-ego stroking going on and people need to get over themselves.

However, I think the crux of the original question was a good one, and I take that to be... what the hell is up with this forum, the way people critique, etc.

If anyone gives a rats ass, here is my take:


I had been away from this forum for a while and have just returned a couple weeks back. I have noticed the following:

• I've found that many of the folks I used to see here who posted stunning images that really almost made me embarrassed to be on this forum... all seem to be gone.
• I've found that the usual level of painfully honest, but wonderfully helpful and constructive feedback I came to love has dropped drastically.
• There really are way too many "attaboys".
• People have take civility to an extreme, saying "wonderful shot! nice colors!" on a pic that needs a lot of help.
• People posting pictures not really looking for an honest critique, but rather looking for some of the above.

The flip side of this, however, is this other element and that is the pomposity of certain people, several of which are posting in this thread... to me, this is just as bad. The "you suck, how dare you not know not to overexpose your pictures" is absolutely the most retarded perspective I have seen to date.

In my very firm opinion, we should all be here to share and to learn. Learn from critiques on your pictures... learn from critiques on pictures of others... and even learn from your own critiques given to others.

What's more is that everyone sucks at something. I'm pretty damned good at commercial real estate photography, but I can't for the life of me take a picture of a beautiful landscape and have it be anything more than "meh". Does that mean when I post a boring landscape that I'm a stupid fricken noob who shouldn't be worthy of your commentary or respect... just because I don't know what I'm doing and I'm asking for help to learn?

F'in hell people... get over yourselves.

Of course, there's the flipside...

If someone rips into your picture and you get all upset, you are in the wrong place doing the wrong thing. It's just as silly as the person who thinks you suck for daring to post it. If this describes you, you really shouldn't be posting your pictures. Show them to your mom and she'll think they're awesome and you can move on. Are you a stupid noob for feeling this way? No. You're probably just not ready for this kind of environment, and that's fine... but seriously stay out of it until you are.

And then there is civility... Do people really need to be civil? Well, yes in a way, but honestly... mostly no. I think outright flaming someone is pretty stupid, but I see no reason to pull any punches. Do you need to call my picture crap? Well, maybe not... but really, if it's that bad, maybe you should. Stroking my ego and telling me my picture is great when I cut off someone's head or have huge noise issues (cough) or whatever is not helping me any, nor is it helping anyone else who reads it, or this board in general. Be honest, be direct, and do your best to be patient with people as they grow... but the last one is less important than the other two, assuming you are here for the right reasons.

But here's the thing... no matter what you say on this forum, unless you are contributing something that someone can learn from, then you are just wasting everyone's time. That goes for the attaboys, and that goes for the "it sucks!" people. Try to think about why the image works for you or doesn't and give some feedback on that.


So... how, then, to give critique?

• Tell it like it is, every time.
• Be direct.
• Be honest.
• Be constructive.
• Take the posture of a teacher... take it upon yourself to help others grow from your experience and insight.
• Don't shy from bad images, tell people if they are bad.

For me, that's it.

Your mileage will not vary. Offer good in all 50 states.

 

[caspertodd]

I do not honostely feel like I am capable of giving proper critique for most of these photos yet... give me a few months and I guarantee that I will be able to. For now I give feedback (not critique) when I like someones photos enough to let them know. Up until now I didn't know that bothered anyone.

One Sister, I am sorry if you feel like I'm being rude, I do not mean to be, just your comments came as an insult. I am serious about photography, and want to learn everything I can, but it is also a hobby to me that I enjoy doing and have fun doing it (but am serious about it at the same time). Yes, I like to join in on the Off Topic Chat too, and I keep that there, but that doesn't mean that I am not serious. The title of each section of this forum says "for feedback and general critique". Maybe there needs to be an entire section labeled "serious critique", not just a thread. I would definitely look through the photos, but probably keep comments to myself unless I could offer suggestions on how to improve the photo, or tell you what you did right.

 

[One Sister]

caspertodd, that's okay, you only made the mistake in thinking this was just another one of the very many threads where folks just jump in and make smilies without understanding a post made in earnest.

My remark referring to "the rudest of them" was not you. This forum is chok-a-block with folks who want what you want. I do not take issue with the majority because I am not a long time poster and I was not here when, as the older posters remember, people were more interested in the craft than in making friends on the internet. I am only wondering if there is a place here for me. I too desire to improve my skills and artistry in earnest, my process in doing so is different from others. I do want the genuine critique and I want to learn how to give them as I feel my skills will improve. If I spent more time doing that than...say...hanging with my friends in bars (not saying you are doing that, I'm just using this as an example)...then I will reach my goal faster. That is not to say that you shouldn't do anything you want. Your process may be different and it may work for you. That's just mine.

Although manaheim said up front that he thought this thread was ridiculous, no matter, he made a very substantive post explaining his process. That's what I'm talking about. Go back through this thread check out the links, look at PP processes posted...most enlightening...and bookmark http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122391 to check on how the more experienced of us execute (poor choice of words perhaps?) their critique. It will make us better photographers. By the way, I tried my hand at it recently and I could see that it was much appreciated...more so than another attaboy. I was intimidated because I too do not think I know enough to give a proper one...but I tried with qualifications. The OP was clearly appreciative and I learned something along the way...this is what I was talking about.

Other than the one contributor to this thread who really didn't take the time to understand my point (he just landed in this forum, didn't read much and hadn't a clue) this has been very interesting. By the way, caspertodd, the people right here in this thread, the ones attracted by "The Art of Critique", those are the ones I suspect will help you and me improve. We will learn to give a substantive critique because it doesn't take an expert photographer to give one, not to say that they aren't experts, just saying that you can give one too. Watch them. We will learn in our own ways in our own time. My methods are different. I've accomplished all the learning I need to accomplish on the playground. For me, it's time to buckle down and study photography. That's all I was trying to say.

Thanks for contributing.

 

[Alpha]

People come here to learn. How is refusing to share your seemingly superior knowledge conducive to that? How is this attitude helping the situation of this forum?

My point is that there are many people here who invest little to no time in learning their craft and their art, and then come to the critique forums crying about their shots not turning out. At some point, giving assistance to these people is a complete waste of my time. Why is it incumbent upon me to teach them fundamental basics? I don't ask that everyone asking me for critique be a superb photographer. But I do ask that they spend some time and energy working to improve themselves. I find it quite rude that someone would, for example, fail at some technical aspect and ask me for an explanation when it's something they could easily learn by visiting their local library, searching the internet, or taking a basic photo class. If you think that's too much to ask then I'm afraid I have nothing left to say to you.

 

[Overread]

I have to say that I would on one side disagree with your view Alpha - remember that not only is the poster asking a question, but that there are many more (both members and non-members) who will be reading the forums for advice - so its not just the OP who might benefit from learning.
Also most people are not able to go to classes on photography and might not even be able to get to a photography club - that leaves the internet for advice and many a time when something is new they might either not know that they are doing something wrong or where in the shot they are going wrong - even if they read every bit of material.
I agree with you that it might be laze on their part to "expect" such advice, but I equally feel that it is a form of laze on the part of other photographers (not attacking you - a general statement to all) not to help others.

 

[Alpha]

I have to say that I would on one side disagree with your view Alpha - remember that not only is the poster asking a question, but that there are many more (both members and non-members) who will be reading the forums for advice - so its not just the OP who might benefit from learning.
Also most people are not able to go to classes on photography and might not even be able to get to a photography club - that leaves the internet for advice and many a time when something is new they might either not know that they are doing something wrong or where in the shot they are going wrong - even if they read every bit of material.
I agree with you that it might be laze on their part to "expect" such advice, but I equally feel that it is a form of laze on the part of other photographers (not attacking you - a general statement to all) not to help others.

With your 450+ posts, surely you've seen the sorts of critiques I'm referring to. I'll give you a theoretical example of some photo with the following problems:

Boring subject and unoriginal composition. Well over- or under-exposed. Great DOF when shallow ought to have been used or vice versa. Poor color balance in the case of color or poor tones in the case of b&w, etc etc.

First, these are things that anyone who's invested themselves should not have serious problems with.
Second, do you have any idea how long it would take for me to fairly and adequately explain how to remedy them all?

 

[Overread]

Well firstly you might not have to write a whole book on each of hte points, but you could at least take the time to tell the person where the faults are?
That is at least showing them where their problems are and from there they can research around if they are keen enough - especially if others also take the time to say "yes the lighting is comming from the wrong angle". However I would consider it important to also take the time to point out where the person has done right (even if you think that they have hardly done anything worth mentioning right) as many will have just got thier camera, gone out and shot. That is where I started - no boring books or research, out with the camera and shooting. It was only later through the comments, crits and praise of others (pro praise that is, family and friends can often give "false" praise) that I have started to develope and also learn more. I have also started to research more into my topic.
This I think is a very different mindset to the way = perhapse - that you or people who take SLR traditional shots approached the hobby - where each shot cost - but this mindset is now the one of those with a digital - not really lazy but taking a different direction to the same learnings

 

[manaheim]

My point is that there are many people here who invest little to no time in learning their craft and their art, and then come to the critique forums crying about their shots not turning out. At some point, giving assistance to these people is a complete waste of my time. Why is it incumbent upon me to teach them fundamental basics? I don't ask that everyone asking me for critique be a superb photographer. But I do ask that they spend some time and energy working to improve themselves. I find it quite rude that someone would, for example, fail at some technical aspect and ask me for an explanation when it's something they could easily learn by visiting their local library, searching the internet, or taking a basic photo class. If you think that's too much to ask then I'm afraid I have nothing left to say to you.

Ah, I get it now.

This forum boils down to the following:

Anyone that posts an image for critique is actually saying "ALPHA! I specifically demand that you, and you personally, tell me how to improve."

At which point, Alpha rears up his mighty head and roars "How dare you suck in my presence!?!?!?!"

God that clears up just SO much for me.

 

[The_Traveler]

Ah, I get it now.

This forum boils down to the following:

Anyone that posts an image for critique is actually saying "ALPHA! I specifically demand that you, and you personally, tell me how to improve."

At which point, Alpha rears up his mighty head and roars "How dare you suck in my presence!?!?!?!"

God that clears up just SO much for me.

TPF Honesty Policy: I pledge to be honest, direct and constructive. I am here to learn and to help others learn if and when I can. I will genuinely tell you what I think, and I genuinely appreciate it when people will do the same for me. I will not be offended by this, and I hope that you will respond similarly when the tables are turned.

I will take my lead from your own signature about being honest and direct. Mannheim. What an amazing attitude. You come onto the site every few months, decide what is right and wrong, toss around a few BS comments and then crown yourself as the arbiter of all that is right and true.

When you have put in the amount of effort, time and skill as Alpha has, then your comments will have some validity.

Alpha has contributed ten times what you have, is being honest with you about how he feels and you respond by derogating him. You are just intellectually dishonest and your behaviour makes me extremely happy you are not here the vast amount of time.