What should be expected from a second shooter?

[imagemaker46]

This one will more likely apply to the wedding photographers on the forum, as it is rare I work with a second photographer covering events. Recently I had to hire a professional photographer to cover off the last 3 days of a shoot I was working on. He was highly recommended, had a great web site and has been an award winning photographer, but still lacked some experience and did have a bit of a "rock star" attitude at times. The amount of images he handed me and the overall quality was just average, I have to say I was disappointed. Part of this question, Am I being too critical of his work by comparing it to how I shoot and the quality that I shoot, or should I just accept his abilities and excuses? For the record, I won't be using him again. It was a challenging sporting event where he had to set up his own shoot schedule, and cover 3-4 events per day, what I got was from some of the events was 15 pictures, where I would end up with 150.

So back to the second shooter, what is really expected. He wasn't really a second shooter, but a primary shooter.

 

[runnah]

Whenever I run a video shoot I expect utmost professionalism and attention to detail from those on the crew. I shouldn't have to tell them how to do something, all I should have to say is "go there and take video". If I hear "how does this work" or "i can't operate this" I will never use that person again. I am not running a school, I am working.

I would expect photos to be the same way.

 

[Overread]

Depends what the job entails. Second shooter is generic term that covers a wide base of situations - It can mean anything from someone who's standing beside you nearly the whole time to someone who is operating totally independent of yourself on the day. The key is to make very sure that you advertise clearly what you want in a second shooter - to ensure that you detail the requirements for them as clearly as possible so that you've the best chance to attract people who will have the required skills. In addition you want to clearly show the skill level and finish that you're intending for as well as the output medium (a photographer skilled at newspaper or web publishing might not be so good in producing shots for say a large scale print or heavy cropping - since their skill set rises far enough to meet their needs).

A general "second shooter for sports shoot" type advertisement would be an example of a statement that is too generic and, whilst gets lots of applications, will run the gauntlet from the skilled to the useless.

The second part is vetting the applicant - getting a measure of the product that they produce and on what kind of skill and experience they have. Detail is key again and you've also got to keep an eye on their general product performance (not just their best) as well as what experiences they have.


Finally be honest with yourself, the day and their performance - certainly have a standard to which you expect them to meet, but if you've gone through steps one and two you should already have an idea of the performance they should be able to meet - if they fall way below then its time to question them as to what went wrong. Furthermore there is an element of experimentation - if you know you'll be needing second shooters consider hiring some for shoots where you don't need them. That lets you get some shots from local applicants without putting your actual work at risk - if they measure up then they are ready for use later; if they fall short you can decide to give them the option to train up or simply not hire them again (this of course depends on your setup and finances - clearly if you only need a second shooter once in a blue moon you might not find this path viable).

 

[pixmedic]

you should expect EXACTLY what the contract your second shooter signed details their responsibilities to be.
you should expect the same quality as was presented to you (and accepted) in their resume portfolio.
you should expect them to work precisely in the manner that was explained in detail to them before the event started, and be able to make whatever changes are necessary during the event per your instructions.
you should expect coffee and donuts.

 

[amolitor]

Well, you need to be familiar with grassy knolls, and the problems with taking a firm stance on potentially wet grass, you need to be steady under pressure, and on no account should you be caught.

 

[Steve5D]

Did his portfolio contain images of the type of sporting event you were covering and having him shoot?

If so, then you should expect nothing more, and nothing less, than what's contained in his portfolio. It's his responsibility to not give you less, and it's your responsibility to not demand more.

If his portfolio contained no images of this type of sporting event, though, you may have to shoulder a good deal of the blame. If he had nothing to show you prior to you hiring him, on what basis did you hire him? Recommendations are fine, but they come with a great big caveat. I'm primarily a music photographer. If someone hires me to shoot their wedding based on my concert shots, who's more at fault when disaster ensues? Me, for not telling them I don't know how to shoot weddings, or the client, for not asking for samples of my wedding work?

 

[kathyt]

My second shooter is at the same level as I am. We would never have to talk at a wedding if we didn't have to, because she just knows what to do. I would trust her with my life. She hands me the CF cards at the end of the night. Once I upload and backup I then give them back to her to upload herself. She can then use the images for her own portfolio after my clients have received their final wedding images. (about 30 days) I pay her very well to keep her with me, and I have never had to hire another second shooter yet.

 

[tirediron]

Did he have work on his 'site that was of a style/genre similar to that for which he was hired?Did he fullfil the terms of his contract and follow the direction you provided?If the work he turned in doesn't match his portfolio, or he didn't follow directions, then you've got some grounds, but if it did...

 

[Derrel]

Am I being too critical of his work by comparing it to how I shoot and the quality that I shoot, or should I just accept his abilities and excuses?

How could he possibly be expected to measure up to you?

 

[Big Mike]

I think you could go one of two ways here.
One: if you weren't happy with the results, then don't hire him again, at least not for the same type of gig.

Two: lay it out to him that you're not satisfied with the results. Tell him exactly what it was that you were not satisfied with. Maybe you're expectations weren't perfectly clear from the start and/or maybe he's not a good as you thought or expected him to be. If he wants to get more work from you, he may try to do something to remedy the situation. Maybe not for this job, but maybe he would be willing to learn from it and give you more of what you expect, if you do hire him again.

I have done a fair bit of 2nd shooting (weddings)....and the one thing that bothers me, is that I either don't get to see the photos (I hand over the cards and that's it) or I don't get much feedback for what they liked or didn't like. Full time wedding photographers are busy, I'm busy...there just doesn't seem to be time (or an urgent need) to go over the photos with me, so that I can learn and improve. Maybe it's just the people I work for, but this is a similar experience with a few different photographers.

Once in a while, I'll see a couple that I've taken, posted on their blog/site. Or maybe a compliment about something in particular. It's nice, but not much of a learning experience. Really, I'd rather have a good long meeting where we could go over things I did well, and not so well.

Really, the 'only' feed back I get, with regard to the quality of the product I provided...is that they keep hiring me.

 

[nycphotography]

This one will more likely apply to the wedding photographers on the forum, as it is rare I work with a second photographer covering events. Recently I had to hire a professional photographer to cover off the last 3 days of a shoot I was working on. He was highly recommended, had a great web site and has been an award winning photographer, but still lacked some experience and did have a bit of a "rock star" attitude at times. The amount of images he handed me and the overall quality was just average, I have to say I was disappointed. Part of this question, Am I being too critical of his work by comparing it to how I shoot and the quality that I shoot, or should I just accept his abilities and excuses? For the record, I won't be using him again. It was a challenging sporting event where he had to set up his own shoot schedule, and cover 3-4 events per day, what I got was from some of the events was 15 pictures, where I would end up with 150.

So back to the second shooter, what is really expected. He wasn't really a second shooter, but a primary shooter.

Yes it is unrealistic to expect someone to shoot to your level.

The real question here is: Did he perform to his own level? If not, then why not and what can HE do so HE doesn't make that mistake again

But if he performed to his own level, and you are disappointed, then the question is why did you hire him? How did you not realize that he was unable to deliver? And how can YOU go about things differently so that YOU don't make that mistake again.

 

[imagemaker46]

Did his portfolio contain images of the type of sporting event you were covering and having him shoot?

If so, then you should expect nothing more, and nothing less, than what's contained in his portfolio. It's his responsibility to not give you less, and it's your responsibility to not demand more.

If his portfolio contained no images of this type of sporting event, though, you may have to shoulder a good deal of the blame. If he had nothing to show you prior to you hiring him, on what basis did you hire him? Recommendations are fine, but they come with a great big caveat. I'm primarily a music photographer. If someone hires me to shoot their wedding based on my concert shots, who's more at fault when disaster ensues? Me, for not telling them I don't know how to shoot weddings, or the client, for not asking for samples of my wedding work?

His web site was impressive and contained quite a few really nice sports images, but then it doesn't take much to put together a really good web site, if you are going to use that as the base to hire someone, I checked with other respected photographers I know and they said he was good and would hire him as well. I talked to him and it was very clear what I was looking for, he was uploading photos to the clients web site as instructed each day and the photos were great. However after getting his edited dvd's and going through them it seems that what he was uploading was pretty much all he was shooting. I know now that he was in over his head on this shoot.

I told him I had expected more images, but then here is where part of that question lies. I know how much I would have shot for each of the events he covered and when he handed me a folder with 13 images from a sport where I would have had 150-200, is it fair to compare what he shot to what I would have shot. I wasn't expecting him to be shooting the same quality or style as me, based on my experience with covering a lot of different sports, but should I have at least expected more?

 

[imagemaker46]

Am I being too critical of his work by comparing it to how I shoot and the quality that I shoot, or should I just accept his abilities and excuses?

How could he possibly be expected to measure up to you?

The thing is, the images he was uploading each day to the clients web site were really great, and I was impressed with what he was producing. I assumed that he was also shooting a lot more than he was, especially at one point he told me he had shot close to 3000 images, and the final number I got from him was 600, and they weren't all gems.

 

[imagemaker46]

This one will more likely apply to the wedding photographers on the forum, as it is rare I work with a second photographer covering events. Recently I had to hire a professional photographer to cover off the last 3 days of a shoot I was working on. He was highly recommended, had a great web site and has been an award winning photographer, but still lacked some experience and did have a bit of a "rock star" attitude at times. The amount of images he handed me and the overall quality was just average, I have to say I was disappointed. Part of this question, Am I being too critical of his work by comparing it to how I shoot and the quality that I shoot, or should I just accept his abilities and excuses? For the record, I won't be using him again. It was a challenging sporting event where he had to set up his own shoot schedule, and cover 3-4 events per day, what I got was from some of the events was 15 pictures, where I would end up with 150.

So back to the second shooter, what is really expected. He wasn't really a second shooter, but a primary shooter.

Yes it is unrealistic to expect someone to shoot to your level.

The real question here is: Did he perform to his own level? If not, then why not and what can HE do so HE doesn't make that mistake again

But if he performed to his own level, and you are disappointed, then the question is why did you hire him? How did you not realize that he was unable to deliver? And how can YOU go about things differently so that YOU don't make that mistake again.

I agree. I think the bottom line is that he was in over his head and started to panic, I know he has the ability to produce great images. I have since realized that he wasn't at the point where he was ready to take on a big shoot on his own.

I learned from this one.

 

[vintagesnaps]

Part way into reading the OP I was already thinking I wouldn't use this guy again, at least not for something like this. If he shot 3000 maybe he got snap happy, just kept firing away hoping to get enough decent shots maybe? and ended up with a lot that weren't usable?

Couple of other photographers in my area that do hockey don't have assistants so I don 't know of anyone's experience with this.

ASMP has some info. on finding an assistant and you can search their database.
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