A few questions about cameras, formats, and editing

FlashGirl · Jul 9, 2017

I've had my Canon T3i for a few years, mostly using it for student films, school event photography, beach day with friends, and vacation. I'm starting to use it regularly and trying to learn more, but certain things confuse me...

RAW vs. Large Jpeg... I've read a bunch of places that RAW is best and better for editing. How does it differ in photoshop or lightroom? What is the actual difference between a jpeg and raw file? (and don't just say more data, I want to understand how you can use that data, and don't just say in editing, I need to understand the practicality of it; how do you use it).

Cameras... I have a Canon rebel T3i, but I've been looking at other cameras to upgrade. Is there a website that shows the differences in the cameras? I was looking on amazon and even the canon shop site and they don't say much about the camera other than the name and wordy jargon that kinda sorta says something, but not really. Like for instance, I'm looking at the canon website's specs on the T6 and it says the ISO is 100-6400 (expandable to H: 12800)... what does that mean? The highest ISO 12800 or 6400? since my T3i has an ISO of 6400 why would I change? I'd rather see a list than wordy paragraphs.

Lastly, for now anyway, for the most part do canon lens work on all models? fro example I want to add to my lens right now, but in the near future... maybe... I might upgrade my camera to a T6 or 80D, will I need to get new lenses?

I apologize if this reads as an impatient *****... I'm just tired of reading and reading and only getting wordy circles that express vague details, or details so wordy it loses it's basic information. I also asked a question else where, unrelated to photography. It was a yes or no question and everyone responded with 5 plus sentences and they ended with a negative positive. (for example, I asked, "is it free? yes or no" and they answered with a long paragraph and ended it with say "no, it is free.")

I promise I'm actually a really nice person, and thank you in advance for answering my questions

Peeb · Jul 9, 2017

Not sure your questions can be answered without several words, and a fair amount of jargon. You seriously need to come to understand the exposure triangle to fully grasp any answer I might give you. There are many fine discussions of jpeg vs raw on YouTube. Jared Polin handles the topic nicely on Fro Knows Photo.

You also need to understand how the sensor size of a camera affects field of view, depth of field, price, and image noise, but again, that takes a lot of yada yada.

OTOH, if you just want to put the camera into full automatic and mash the shutter button, I'm sure a canon adficionado can discuss lens compatibility, as well and a short pithy summary of tech advances since the t3i (nice camera btw).

Finally, sometimes the most honest response to a yes/no question is "it depends".

Sorry, and good luck!

photo1x1.com · Jul 9, 2017

Hi, and welcome to the forum!
I try to be as quick as possible because I just like you hate long wided text.
RAW vs Jpeg:
Jpeg is a compressed file format that will produce compression artifacts. They are invisible when you first open the file in Photoshop, but if you open it, save it again, open it, save it again,.... You will finally end up with visible artifacts.
RAW doesn´t do that, it is uncompressed. One very big advantage is setting the white balance in your image editing program rather than in camera. And you won´t lose even the tinyest bit of quality when you do that. Same goes for exposure correction of highlights, shadow. When you shoot a raw file and it is over exposed, you can bring lots of information in the overexposed areas back - same for underexposed, wheras with jpg: if it is overexposed (white), you can´t bring it back and the same with blacks.

Cameras: www.dpreview.com

Canon Lenses: there are full frame (EF) lenses that work on all bodies, and APS-C (EF-S) Lenses, that only work on bodies with crop sensors and will leave a heavy vignette (black borders) if you use them on a full frame body.

FlashGirl said:
I've had my Canon T3i for a few years, mostly using it for student films, school event photography, beach day with friends, and vacation. I'm starting to use it regularly and trying to learn more, but certain things confuse me...

RAW vs. Large Jpeg... I've read a bunch of places that RAW is best and better for editing. How does it differ in photoshop or lightroom? What is the actual difference between a jpeg and raw file? (and don't just say more data, I want to understand how you can use that data, and don't just say in editing, I need to understand the practicality of it; how do you use it).

Cameras... I have a Canon rebel T3i, but I've been looking at other cameras to upgrade. Is there a website that shows the differences in the cameras? I was looking on amazon and even the canon shop site and they don't say much about the camera other than the name and wordy jargon that kinda sorta says something, but not really. Like for instance, I'm looking at the canon website's specs on the T6 and it says the ISO is 100-6400 (expandable to H: 12800)... what does that mean? The highest ISO 12800 or 6400? since my T3i has an ISO of 6400 why would I change? I'd rather see a list than wordy paragraphs.

Lastly, for now anyway, for the most part do canon lens work on all models? fro example I want to add to my lens right now, but in the near future... maybe... I might upgrade my camera to a T6 or 80D, will I need to get new lenses?

I apologize if this reads as an impatient *****... I'm just tired of reading and reading and only getting wordy circles that express vague details, or details so wordy it loses it's basic information. I also asked a question else where, unrelated to photography. It was a yes or no question and everyone responded with 5 plus sentences and they ended with a negative positive. (for example, I asked, "is it free? yes or no" and they answered with a long paragraph and ended it with say "no, it is free.")

I promise I'm actually a really nice person, and thank you in advance for answering my questions

KmH · Jul 9, 2017

The primary difference between JPEG and a Raw file is color bit depth.
Note that a JPEG starts as a Raw file in the camera.
The JPEG file type was designed to be a ready-to-print file that would not be edited outside the camera.
Note to that each time a JPEG is edited and re-saved it is again lossy compressed and even more image data is lost.

The image sensor in a digital camera doesn't actually take a picture. What it does is it records an analog voltage proportional to how much light hits each pixel.
Those millions of analog pixel voltages (image file data) have to be converted to a digital number so the numbers can be processed into a picture. Digital camera make 12-bit or 14 bit long numbers, depending on the camera or the camera settings.

12-bits = 100110101011 - 14 bits = 00110101011101
Those millions of numbers are the Raw image data file that a JPEG can be made from in the camera.
If the camera is set to record the Raw data to the memory card those numbers are what get written.
Note that the Raw file is not yet a picture.
The Raw file has to be processed in a Raw converter application before it can be shown as a picture.

DSLR cameras usually offer an option to record both the Raw file and a JPEG made from that Raw file to the memory card.

Pictures made directly from a Raw file cannot be displayed on the Internet because they have to much bit depth. An image from a Raw file has a 16-bit depth but the Internet is limited to an 8-bit depth.

The_Traveler · Jul 9, 2017

photo1x1.com said:
Jpeg is a compressed file format that will produce compression artifact. They are invisible when you first open the file in Photoshop, but if you open it, save it again, open it, save it again,.... You will finally end up with visible artifacts.

If you open a jpeg and SAVE it, many, many times, it may show compression artifact.
If you open and close a jpeg (not resaving), no artifacts.

The advantage of raw over jpeg is that all the information from the sensor is preserved, nothing is thrown away by the firmware as it condenses the sensor data to a jpeg.
The disadvantage of raw is that you are committing to edit every shot you want to use. If you are in controlled environment, jpeg is convenient. If you are in an uncontrolled environment where either light changes or has huge dynamic range, then shooting raw + jpg is really useful. The jpeg for quick looks and use if it turns out well, the raw for the times you need to edit.

For example, shooting a pickeball tournament.
The subject was in the deep shade and the background was very, very bright.
I have to shoot raw to capture all the detail in both and need to edit to make it look decent.

photo1x1.com · Jul 9, 2017

Here is an example. First is processed in lightroom and saved in jpg. second is 10 times saved, opened, resaved with maximum quality. The problem is especially visible in background (sky, etc.)

Designer · Jul 9, 2017

FlashGirl said:
.. do canon lens work on all models?

Hi, and welcome!

As far as I know, the answer is "no", not all Canon lenses fit all camera bodies.

The best way to find out which ones fit is to consult your user's manual for a list of compatible lenses. For considering a new camera body (presumably newer, as well) go online and view the user's manual for that particular model. There should be a list of compatible lenses listed somewhere.

If you don't find adequate information by doing that, contact Canon directly.

If you are considering an upgrade, find out what lenses will be bundled with that camera, and that information can become part of your decision about which camera to purchase.

Derrel · Jul 9, 2017

RAW images, in 12-bit or 14-bit color depth are very much adjustable in post processing software! Errors in in-camera exposure setting, errors in white balance assignment, contrast errors, all sorts of camera-settings mistakes and accidents can, quite often, be corrected in software, and the settings that were used at the camera stage do not necessarily "ruin the shot for good", which is what often happens when a major camera-settings mistake happens and the shot is made as an 8-birt color depth .JPEG image file.

RAW files (or raw files, if you want to be pedantic) in 12-bit or 14-bit color depth from modern mirrorless or d-slr cameras are very useful for later editing!

Canon's EF-S lenses are for the majority of their crop-sensor bodies (EOS 10D excepted, maybe the D30 as well, they can NOT mount EF-S lenses.) Canon EF lenses, originally from the EOS film system, and also made later and still to this very day, can be used on ALL Canon d-slr cameras. And on all EOS film cameras too.

EF-S are the EF Short-flange lenses, which protrude a bit farther into the camera body opening, and can NOT be used on their full-frame film or digital SLR cameras. Canon or other-maker EF-S moun t lenses will work fine of the T6,T6i, or 80D, and other crop-sensor Canon digital SLRs.

"Regular" autofocus-era Canon EF mount lenses, like their 70-200 or 50mm STM, 35mm f/2, and 85mm f/1.8 EF, and the popular zoom 24-105 f/4 L IS USM will also work on ALL Canon EOS-era cameras, film or d-slr, made since the mid-1980's.

Peeb · Jul 9, 2017

Here is the raw vs jpg discussion I was referring to:

vintagesnaps · Jul 9, 2017

I'm a longtime film photographer and when I was first using a digital camera and shooting JPEGs, I found it difficult to get results I was happy with. The camera had already edited the images from the recorded Raw images to JPEGs. When I switched to shooting Raw I felt like I got better results, probably because the camera is recording images and not pre-editing in the same way it does with JPEGs. I do minimal adjusting or editing but still like shooting Raw.

My camera actually is DNG, so it records the Raw image and a JPEG from that. In Photoshop I can look at both and sometimes there's a noticeable difference, sometimes not. I think it depends on various things like the amount of light when taking photos (bright sunny day v. overcast or low light, etc.). You could do some experimenting yourself - shoot various subjects once with the camera in Raw and a second time set to JPEG, then you could see how they differ.

To me it's somewhat comparable to scans of film or print images - if it's done at a higher res setting it's often better quality than a lower res image because it's scanning at more dpi.

I find in general that a better quality image will enlarge better.

As Derrel said from the '80s on, Canon has been using the same EF lens mount. Older Canons have a different lens mount and it's smaller in diameter so older lenses would not fit newer bodies (and vice versa).

vintagesnaps · Jul 9, 2017

Oh no, I don't have to watch The Fro do I? lol Any of these guys doing videos sometimes may be worth watching, but I'd take them and Petapixel articles (depending on what it is and where it came from) with a grain of salt.

Derrel · Jul 9, 2017

Here is a frame from yesterday...SOoC (Straight Out of Camera), and then Lightroom edits done from the RAW files from the D610. lens is the AF-D 180mm f/2.8 ED~IF Nikkor, one of the light-weight, easy-to-carry "value" primes that Nikon has made since the 1980's.

All I did was clone in an eye catchlight, and apply a preset of a type he and I discussed yesterday. Random guy I met yetsersay as he and a friend were out taking pictures with the buddy's D750 and two-lens setup: a 16-80mm DX on full-frame, annnd the 28mm f/1.8 AF-S G prime. The SOoC shot was just down-sized, and is As-Shot.

Peeb · Jul 9, 2017

vintagesnaps said:
Oh no, I don't have to watch The Fro do I? lol Any of these guys doing videos sometimes may be worth watching, but I'd take them and Petapixel articles (depending on what it is and where it came from) with a grain of salt.

Ha ha- he's opinionated and a shameless self-promoter but I find him entertaining. I don't always agree with him, but I do shoot raw 90-plus percent of the time for the reasons he sets forth.

Derrel · Jul 9, 2017

Another frame of the six that I shot of this guy, same thing: A Straight Out of Camera or SOoC .JPEG, and then two versions of a quick Lightroom edite of a 12-bit RAW file from the Nikon D610 and AF-D 180mm f/2.8 ED~IF Nikkor prime lens.

Straight Out of Camera JPEG, down-sized to 1400 pixels, 7:00 PM evening sunlight, hazy day

Lightroom edit

Lightroom edit

photo1x1.com · Jul 9, 2017

I like your edits, Derrel!!!

Here´s another example after a rather sleepless night with hundreds of ligthning strokes.
This one image turned out rather overexposed - the first is straight out of camera (still raw though), the second is the edit I made. This would have never been possible with a jpg file.
And at the very bottom there is a 100% crop to show that the image quality is still OK.