Taking posts seriously

[Alex_B]

The bottom line is that without at least some information from the photographer regarding their intentions no-one can give a crit that is anything other than their opinion and what they might have done in the same situation.
A good crit should be two-way communication.

But with some images, such as those I take, it is self-evident that many things could be improved, which are rather independent of what I wanted to achieve. Maybe this is because I still make so many mistakes on the simple technical level and haven't reached the artsy stage yet.

And with many images it is easy to see what the photographer wanted to achieve anyway .. I agree, not with all! And I also agree that stating what one wants to achieve, one will get more targeted critique.

But to come back to the point which confuses me in what you are saying.
If I tell someone what he could have done to achieve better what he intended to achieve. Then again this is an answer of the type "If I wanted to achieve what you want to achieve, then I would have done it differently." There is no absolute universal truth in any advise.

Anyway, this is probably nitpicking, and I have been told off once already for this today.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

But with some images, such as those I take, it is self-evident that many things could be improved, which are rather independent of what I wanted to achieve. Maybe this is because I still make so many mistakes on the simple technical level and haven't reached the artsy stage yet.

If things are independent of what you want to achieve then they are not really important to the image.
It is possible to take an amazing picture that is technically poor just as easily as it is to take a picture that is technically excellent yet totally devoid of content. And I know which one I would prefer to look at.
Photography is about self-exploration.
Whenever you take a picture, wether you know it or not, you are expressing something about yourself.
Part of becoming a good photographer is about understanding yourself. Why did you take a picture of this and not of that? What is it about this that attracts you? You find you start trying to answer these questions photographically - in effect, you explore your subject and your response to it.
Your technical skill will improve when you get to the stage that your ideas outstrip your abilities. And your creative ideas will grow to push the limits of your technical skill.
As you improve the one you improve the other.

 

[Alex_B]

I am wquite glad I can agree to almost everything you said there ... except ...

If things are independent of what you want to achieve then they are not really important to the image.

... that I think the word really is debateable.

If I created an image which expresses something, or has the desired effect on the person viewing it (and if it is just that it transports the beauty of the scenery I depicted to the recipient), then I still think it is legitimate if I wish that image had some more technical perfection than it has.

It is possible to take an amazing picture that is technically poor

I know examples of that ...

just as easily as it is to take a picture that is technically excellent yet totally devoid of content.

And I know even more examples of that. Especially when it comes to digital photography.

And your creative ideas will grow to push the limits of your technical skill.
As you improve the one you improve the other.

True, but sometimes the technical skill lags behind. When I go through my archives, I can find images I would take almost the same way today as I took them 10 years ago. But I wish I could redo them, since they would be technically better.

Hmm, but I think we started a stray-off discussion here

And I see we agree on more here than I thought in the beginning. Maybe just my perspective and phrasing of things is different from yours, which is probably way more experienced than mine.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

If I created an image which expresses something, or has the desired effect on the person viewing it (and if it is just that it transports the beauty of the scenery I depicted to the recipient), then I still think it is legitimate if I wish that image had some more technical perfection than it has.

There is nothing wrong in that.
It means you are looking at your own pictures critically and recognising your weaknesses. It gives you the impetus and direction in which to improve next.
It will also help you when you look at other's work - to recognise when technical flaws are relevant to the picture. Some images are enhanced by their faults.

... but sometimes the technical skill lags behind. When I go through my archives, I can find images I would take almost the same way today as I took them 10 years ago. But I wish I could redo them, since they would be technically better.

And sometimes your creative abilities and ideas will lag behind your technical skill. The two are never in balance except when you are stagnant.
It's a bit like a game of leapfrog :mrgreen:

Have we strayed off topic? I don't think so.
We were talking about taking posts seriously or, more accurately, the role and nature of critique and how to give it and receive it. I have just given you a very gentle critique on your ideas about this. Surely on topic?

 

[Alex_B]

Have we strayed off topic? I don't think so.
We were talking about taking posts seriously or, more accurately, the role and nature of critique and how to give it and receive it. I have just given you a very gentle critique on your ideas about this. Surely on topic?

OK, then we expanded this thread into discussing critique on a more general level. At least noone can complain. But I was about to go off topic a bit more, but I stopped myself before you realised

My problem in the beginning was simply that I was not sure what you were aiming at. But now that I know that you won't be my enemy if I continue giving critique the way I do (even though it is mainly technical), I am calm again

 

[Hertz van Rental]

But now that I know that you won't be my enemy if I continue giving critique the way I do (even though it is mainly technical), I am calm again

I'm no-one's enemy - except for the occasional misguided 12 year old who thinks no-one knows more than they. And even then I'm not an enemy - they just imagine I am so they can feel better about themselves. :lmao:
Give critique anyway you like as long as you are not rude or offensive. People can listen to you or ignore you as they feel inclined.
Just make sure you look at the picture as a whole and try to find out the photographer's intentions before deciding if something is a technical fault or not

 

[The_Traveler]

This discussion seems to have wound its way to a friendly useful end but I didn't want it to end completely before giving a single example of what someone named as 'bad criticism' and I considered extraordinarily unhelpful. It occured, of course on another site.

I had posted this picture

And someone came back with this critique

I guess I prefer photos of people doing something, Lew... photos which tell a story. One of my favoite photos I've taken of my wife's grandkids is a teenager being taught how to use chopsticks. I can see the grand daughter's boyfriend's kindness and maturity and the grand daughter's acceptance of his kindness. I much prefer that photo over any actual portraits I've done of her.

I thought about what to say, the fact that he responded only marginally to the picture I actually posted , but talked mostly about another unposted picture and his own reaction to it, but I just decided to respond to the idea in his first sentence with this imaginary dialogue.

Leonardo da Vinci to Mona Lisa: "OK, Lise, that first one was good but I think we can get some more oomph into it if we throw in a puppy and you smile at the puppy while you rub his belly."

He didn't respond but I'm afraid I lost him as a friendly critic.

Thanks to all for this thread and the really good interactions.

 

[357magnum]

This might be a good place to insert an quote from an old acquaintance of mine. He posted this on another photo site in 2003:

yeah because that quote guide is so true...not, that may be in his point of view but not in another persons.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

I thought about what to say,

A better response would have been to say: 'but she is doing something. She's looking at you!' :mrgreen:

 

[Alex_B]

I'm no-one's enemy - except for the occasional misguided 12 year old who thinks no-one knows more than they.

But then again, there are 12 and 14 year olds who do stunning photography .. I sometimes am impressed by how young some people on this forum are ... and their photography looks rather mature

Give critique anyway you like as long as you are not rude or offensive.

rude? only on bad days or when being appraoched rude .. worst when being approached rude on bad days

Just make sure you look at the picture as a whole and try to find out the photographer's intentions before deciding if something is a technical fault or not

I always try to find the good things in those images I do not like and include them in my reply anyway.

 

[Alex_B]

Traveler .. if you had only posted this earlier, ...

 

[Hertz van Rental]

But then again, there are 12 and 14 year olds who do stunning photography .. I sometimes am impressed by how young some people on this forum are ... and their photography looks rather mature

That wasn't meant to be taken literally - but don't worry about it.

 

[calmom]

this is a great thread. i don't participate here much because i have to sift through so many cute baby snapshots. don't get me wrong, i love pictures of children! i don't think i worded it the right way. maybe it's off balance with more new people than pros. and yes, i AM new but i love the input of people with more experience.

 

[ArmyOfNone]

IMO, criticism should really only be there if it can help the person better, and in return the person posting the picture should be respectful of other viewpoints on their photos. I know that I for one would gladly lend an open ear to anyone who cared to try and show me things.

And of course us 14 year olds can do amazing things.=P