When C&C is requested.

[Garbz]

The problem with critique is that art is subjective. How can someone say something is "a better way" when someone else who picks "a different way" is equally right.

Ultimately a critique only forum is just a place to stick all arguments in the one place.

 

[ShotGunNik]

That is also true because art is different in so many ways for each individual and their own view on the subject matter or piece. So in the event that a member is telling another member,"Although your shot was great, you should do it like this...." or "Although your post processing is good, I think it would be better if you tried something different..." I believe its more of suggestions for that person as a tool for self-refinement with either their photo technique, post processing of their work, etc. And this is where individuals such as ourselves can assist with continueing to let the thread flow into more of suggestive comments than attacks or random comments.

I think if as a group people would set an example of communication lined with some sort of a collective common sense of what's being discussed, events such as disputes and what not would be avoided or atleast tuned down greatly.

 

[craig]

In reality if someone posts the most feeble photo riddled with problems it becomes a feeding frenzy. All of a sudden every Tom, Dick or Harry who has been to a Strobist meeting points out flaws that the OP has no control over after he has shot the photo. They are helpful, but it quickly resembles banging your head against a wall. On the other hand if someone posts 2 versions of a strong photo with exif info and detailed questions they get no response. What does that tell you?

When we say that art is subjective it is my feeling that is wrong. Liking or admiring the photo should have nothing to do with a critique. Personally I feel that it is more important to understand what the photographer is trying to say and help him toward that goal. Time and time again TPF has proven that can not be accomplished.

Now... If yous guys think you can pull it together talk to the mods. We all wait in anticipation. If you want to get silly between now and then read John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" and the incomparable Susan Sontag's "On Photography"

Love & Bass

 

[stsinner]

I'm on the brink of calling it a day here on TPF. After all those many, many years...

Wow.. That would be a shame, Corinna... I've become disenchanted, as well.. From people getting defensive about your critique after they ask for it, and, yes, it really is amazing how all the new members come and ask the same questions about aperture, ISO, White Balance, etc.. I saw the bitching about it when I was new, but didn't believe it.. Now, I understand the frustrations of those of us who have been here a while with the constant repetition of the same basic questions, but they are hungry for knowledge, and it is nice to ask a question and have it answered pointedly to you.. I can attest to that.. I'd much rather ask a simple question and have it answered by a pro than to go searching for an answer, that way I can ask that pro for clarification of change up the equipment setup or setting and get a second opinion on what I should do.. You can't do that with Wiki...

I really think that this should be more a a sharing and comments forum and light on the C&C, because DPS seems to have the school end of it locked up... Just my 0.02.. Shooters love to take pictures and hear comments, just as a man loves to cook a nice steak on the grill and his guests compliment his cooking...

I have really enjoyed my time here, even though I've been threatened with a ban several times, and some of the members have gotten their panties in a twist over some honest comments, so I'll always visit and post once in a while, and I'll tell you this-I'm a MUCH better photographer because of this site.. Big Mike has been an awesome help and inspiration with his calm and level-headed and succinct comments. There are others, but the hot wings are beeping, and I'm gonna go snag them outta the oven....

 

[WhineAndDine]

im really new to this forum. im a part of at least 6 other forums. ranging from trucks, to aquariums, to computers....a whole bunch of things. in all honesty, this forum has been the least helpful and supportive. i haven't made too many CC requests, but ive read a ton of posts where others have asked for help. what i see is someone posting their opinion, and then another person hating on that person for posting their opinion. then it just goes downhill from there. some people on here are fairly full of themselves. and thats understandable because photography is an art form, and artists are often full of themselves.

 

[inTempus]

some people on here are fairly full of themselves. and thats understandable because photography is an art form, and artists are often full of themselves.

Not always...

You have 4 basic types of personalities.

Dominate - 12% of the population
Expressive - 19% of the population
Analytical - 37% of the population
Amiable - 32% of the population

Most people will have a primary and secondary personality trait. Example, I'm Analytical/Amiable according to a recent test. Both are actually low assertive personality traits, and people in my group account for the majority of the population. Most peoples' personalities will shift when under pressure. My dominance shoots through the roof when my stress level goes up. But once the stress is gone, I revert back to my primary/secondary traits.

The high assertive groups (Dominate and Expressive) are the ones that insert themselves into every conversation, always act as if they're in charge and like to tell others how to behave or what to do. They usually speak in terms of "I" or "me" and are usually perceived as being more aggressive/less personable. They rarely admit fault, almost never believe they are at fault and certainly can't be bothered with an apology because they're not team players. They lack social skills. When under stress, their dominance typically increases... they don't usually become more analytical or amiable.

Even though Dominate/Expressives only account for 31% of the population, they seem like they're more prevalent because of their behavior.

Artists typically are Expressive. While this is a high assertive personality trait it's not always one that is perceived as being aggressive. They are usually very talkative, make lots of hand gestures when talking, and sometimes even think aloud. Generally, they talk too much. But they can be opinionated which is often misunderstood as being too assertive.

So, I submit that this form is really no better or worse than other forums regardless if we're "artists" or not. We just have a handful of dominate personalities that go unchecked and fluster new users from time to time.

Wasn't that fun? I'm REALLY-REALLY bored and it's 11:30pm here. I really need to take a sleeping pill or something vs. driving you guys nuts with the goofy stuff I just posted.

 

[Anubis]

What about having a poll with the ability to award stars for composition, exposure, aethstetics (sp?)? This would serve two purposes, firstly people who pehaps don't want to articulate their opinion can still quickly rate a photo, and secondly it would give people who do want to comment a set of areas on which to base their replies

The submitter would be able to see straight away which area needs work.

What are the categories on which art would be critiqued in the professional world?

 

[WhineAndDine]

ugh... dont get me started on the polls on this forum. the method they choose to conduct polls are archaic. every other forum im a part of has the pictures on the actual poll page location. but for here, they insist on uploading pictures to a separate gallery, which you have to navigate to, then remember the title of the photo, then go back to the poll page, and vote for the photo of the month.

I have a strong feeling this is the reason there aren't as many votes as there should be.

Just make a poll and then immediately under that, put the pictures. i personally guarantee you will have at least 20x more votes this way.

 

[Overread]

I had some time now - some help for people:

How to structure your posts to get critiques on your work (C&C)

Photographic workshops

 

[terri]

I've noticed that there is a "groups" and a "friends" feature on this site. I wouldn't want to propose abandoning the message board. Maybe if we just set up a group within the board.

At last - someone is suggesting something that could actually work. :cheer:

I want to make a few points crystal clear here, in an effort to spread the word among the membership should there be more threads raised about C&C.

First: there have been a couple of full blown efforts at formalizing photographic critique here at TPF over the years. We had an informal model which ultimately failed, and a much stricter model which ultimately failed. In both cases, moderators were heavily involved.

Second: the forum's membership has grown beyond being *moderated* by a handful of mods. Please understand that adding more mods is not going to give you what you think you want. The mods are here now to enforce the guidelines expressed in the FAQ's, to listen to feedback about certain issues, and help with contests, spam or threads as needed, etc. But TPF today is a very different place than the TPF of yesteryear, so many aspects of site planning and growth now rests in the hands of dedicated membership - like yourselves.

Which leads me to point Three: in recent years, what has been most effective is when certain activities in the site are member-driven. The mods generally keep out of it and you are free to manage yourselves. Two cases in point: the Fight Club and Box Turtle contests, and the Photo Assignments forum. All the moderator involvement was setting up the forums, and occasionally stepping in to help. This is an appropriate model for what works on a huge forum with a handful of moderators. We cannot - and should not - be there to get involved in every tiff or discussion about "What can we do to better TPF?"

One more point (yeah, I'm wordy) :razz: As TiCoyote demonstrates, there are a lot of great features on this site that remain under-utilized. By all means - start a group or three! Members can create and manage their own groups, to their own satisfaction. You could have a group called C&C for Beginners, one for C&C for Intermediate, or C&C by a volunteer panel - you are limited only by your own imaginations. You don't need a mod's input or permission, as long as you remain within forum guidelines.

I'm also going to take advantage of your attention to plug another useful feature that sadly gets overlooked: the Ignore List. If there is a member with whom you do not get along, go to your control panel and add them to your Ignore List, and never read their stupid blathering comments again. You don't need a moderator. You can control your destiny. All of life should be so beautiful.

Okay, so - 'nuff said. I would love to see you get together and run with it. Organize it here, or take the discussion to the first Group. Enjoy!

 

[manaheim]

too much effort that
and it costs!

I can host a forum if you like. I could have it up in, oh, 10 minutes?

 

[manaheim]

There's a lot going on in this thread.

Before I start yammering incoherrently because I'm exhaused and hopped up on some excellent pain meds at the moment, let me credentialize myself a bit. Pardon me if this sounds, um... dominant.

I've been in IT and particularly in the web and hosting spaces for about 15 years now. I specialize in improving organizations and electronic service offerings and have saved corporations tens of millions of dollars, improved adoption rates of community technologies within firms from less than 3% to well over 90%, etc. I live and breathe in this space that we're agonizing over right now.

Ok, enough of that.

In general, I do think there are certain areas where this community as a whole is lacking in it's ability to meet the needs and wants of, um, itself.

For example, Teri mentioned groups. Now groups seems like a great idea... right up to the point where you actually try to use them. Go check it out. (first, find them if you can) Then see how much functionality is afforded. It's really nowhere near the capabilities of the core forum, so people don't use them probably mainly because they don't help much.

Some folks here have mentioned small more formalized circles of folks to handle certain kinds of functions, such as critique. Now this is very much what Teri is talking about, and it works well, but the technology must support it to make it a success. Since groups probably won't hack it, you need something else... what? Well, in a more dynamic setup like ClearSpace, groups could form little subcommunities with all the same functionality as the core community, just focused differently. These can come and go with rise and fall of popularity or success like a real dynamic living thing... very powerful. From what I've seen vBulletin can't really do this.

In the absence of technology support, people can try more people-powered methods to get these kinds of things done. Like, perhaps someone such as Overread sets up an elite band of critiquing people and they all agree to act as a team responding to each and every post in the General Gallery from 12-5 EST M-F or something like that.

Something like this could work, but MAN is it a lot of time and work to manage. In fact, it sounds very much like WORK. Speaking as someone who has foolishly run a "guild" in a major online game, I can say with conviction that this eats your life and will eventually fall apart.

As Terri mentioned, there were some forums setup previously for specific things... (TPF Fight Club, for example) I think this would work, but I think the mods would have to be a lot more willing to set these up and break them down with relative frequency as the community evolves over time. It's admittedly a lot of work.

I also think to make this work that the mods would have to be willing to extend the moderation capabilities to certain folks for certain areas. Again, the overread example... say he decides to get his band of 8 merry men and women and setup camp in a subforum... "The Overread Critque Squad", where there is a very structured approach to posting and getting critique... then he and his merry band would probably need the ability to moderate that forum pretty aggressively to have that work.

So far, though, it seems that change around here is a bit limited. I understand the community has been around a while and our hosts feel they know pretty well what works and what doesn't, and "we've tried that before and it failed", and such... the problem, however, is that I do think we lose a lot of talented and/or well-meaning folks here because of our inability or unwillingness to adapt a bit.

And I have one thing to say about "it's been tried before..." Sometimes things fail for reasons other than the merit of the idea itself, if you know what I mean. Just because it failed once... twice... or three times... does NOT mean it will fail again. I can attest to this as I have a great deal of experience in this area.

All that said, my personal opinion is some major stuff would have to happen differently to make this work...

Either...

1. We switch to a new core technology to host the community. (massive undertaking and highly unlikely)
2. We get a bit more flexible about deputizing mods and allowing the creation of subforums around particular ideas to make the community better.
3. Someone else sets up a new community and we all move.

That being said, TPF is a business. I don't know how much money they make, but they evidently make some. To some degree, as long as the money keeps flowing, there may not be a compelling reason to go overly outside of the norm of "what works". I don't get the sense that our benefactors are quite that cold, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

I get that point, but I think the overall mood is that people arn't even getting that at the moment - I think we hav an overdose of seekers and an underdose of teachers - so we can make some seekers share what they have (they have eyes to give a view - it might not be the perfect view and they might not know how to fix things, but they still have a view).
Certainly threads would remain open to all to comment on - just that a group of ( say 8) people would have to take notice of others posts - or maybe only a few posts per week (say best 3 photos per week or somesuch - one photo per thread of course!)

I am enjoying reading this topic. As a new member, rusty camera background (beginer-again), with an arts background, and a professional jeweler/designer, I know what I hope to get out of this. Overread hit the nail on the head. A lot of us want feedback, and there is not enough given. What Overread is suggesting in his first sentence is exactly how Critiques were done in all my art classes at Uni. There was often only one professional and 15-20 seekers. Well, we had group critiques where we went around the room and each person had to comment on each others work. It was invaluable. You can often learn more this way. Everyones opinion should be taken in a manner that makes you think. You can defend your position till the cows come home, but if you don't even consider and think about someone elses opinion, you lose.

Now being new, I am eager to put up every pic I take and get C&C. But I have already learned to be more patient and post "the best" of a session, or an image that troubles me. I realize most of my shots are "nice" but nothing spectacular. Hearing what others like about a shot, helps me think about how to shoot. It won't dictate my style, but I can always keep that info as a tool.

I have been uncomfortable responding to others seeking C&C, because, well, who the hell am I? Right? Well, I look back at my education and realize I can say something. I realize that while I am not an expert, my comments might at least make someone think. They can think I am totally wrong, but as long as they did some thinking, it's all good. Right? I am vowing to comment more on others offerings.:thumbup:

I have only come across one instance where someone said something kind of rude, but in my mind warranted, and the OP got all defensive. Continuing to follow the thread, I totally felt it was warranted. Rude, but right on the money. But overall, my sense of this forum is pretty welcoming to new people. If people can't take criticism, they shouldn't ask for it.

As far as C&C, I was wondering if somehow people could ask specifically what they are looking for. Like for me, I want to know more about my compostion, than my tech. I know when my shots are out of focus, and often you can't run out and retake the shot to correct that. So sometimes I want to know (if this image were in focus) is this a strong comp. Sometimes focus is part of the compositon, so, theres that.

I look forward to seeing how this comes together, because it could be a wonderful thing. :mrgreen:

David

The problem with critique is that art is subjective. How can someone say something is "a better way" when someone else who picks "a different way" is equally right.

Ultimately a critique only forum is just a place to stick all arguments in the one place.

Isn't it wise to hear "different ways"? Just because there may be two means to the same end, does not mean the "other way" will never be usefull.

 

[Anubis]

Another idea may be an invite only/hidden board where people who offer sensible and helpful critique in the main forums are invited to join. Much the same way I imagine moderators are chosen. Then you would have a C&C forum without the "bad eggs" which in turn would probably lead to more stuff being posted in that forum ...rewarding people who make the effort to contribute.

 

[SympL]

I don't see that happen in today's threads on here, either.
Actually, my feeling is that unless you are a total beginner doing all the usual beginner's mistakes which are easiest to point out for every "one-eyed among the blind", your posts pass by totally uncommented (0 replies). You get NOTHING any more. No friendly, communicative comment, no positive critique. No negative critique. Only silence. That's been my own experience for the entire past year and is putting me off posting here at all (and somehow you can tell I used to LIKE posting here).

I'm not saying my photography is spotless.
But after so and so many years of taking photos, I can no longer claim to be the absolute beginner who needs guidance in the world of photography.

Which has gradually placed me in the land of "nobody".
I have given so many comments. Sooo many.
I get nothing in return from this forum any more.
The conclusion I draw from the usual 0 replies-posts I keep getting is that my photography must (!) be the most boring of the whole wide world ... I'm on the brink of calling it a day here on TPF. After all those many, many years...

I take it you are not happy with your current salary as a Mod here at TPF.
Corinna, I have been a Moderator on three forums over the years and I believe I can safely say things are no different anywhere. In fact, I would like to have $10 for every time I have seen a similar thread to this one over the years. The basics of all forums are the same, and like this one, some are just a little more user friendly than the others.
As I see it, the best thing these forums have to offer is the wealth of knowledge available to the 'newbie' photographer. Those that truly have a passion to learn about the art can/will do so by being a member of a forum such as this. Those people, Corinna, are the ones that will benefit most from your experience and knowledge of the art. When you post an image, those people get to go to school on your image, those people will hopefully grasp some inspiration from your work. Will you know who they are? Perhaps not, but that is what you have to offer by being first, an experienced photographer and second, by being a Moderator on a forum that opens its doors to beginners.
Good Luck to you. I hope you hang in.