But still, e-books cost less than paper books, especially when you factor in the costs of manufacturing, warehousing, transport to schools, and disposal at the end of their short lifespans.
Granted, however I was meaning the cost to the consumer/student; the difference between electronic and paper books is minimal, at least in the Canadian system. It may be different in your area. The other point is: There's no such thing as a second-hand e-book.
So, you only want to look at one cost in order to try to claim that e-books aren't cheaper, when in fact they are anyway, and you don't want to bring in all of the associated costs collectively. And I should take this argument from you seriously... ummm... why?
Comparing it to the current electronic disposal methods in Asia is invalid for the simple fact that a wrong over there doesn't turn a wrong over here into a right. The current disposal methods in Asia need to stop, and as soon as you rule Asia, you can put that on your agenda. As long as it continues though, it doesn't make paper mill pollution "right" or valid in any way.
I'm not suggesting for a second that pollution in any form is 'right', or that one is better than another. I am stating however, that the pollution arising from the North American/European production of text-books and paper-based educational material is many orders of magnitude less harmful than the south-east Asian production/ of electronics. The reality of the situation is, regardless of western views, most of this processing does, and will continue to occur in south-east Asia simply because of cheap labour and lax environmental standards. Like it or lump it... it is.
My point stands, and now you acknowledge it: It's not going to stop, whether you like paper books better or not. It's not an either / or choice of one evil over another. In the end, the writing is on the wall: Paper books will be replaced by e-books just as digital sensors are replacing film, just as digital recorders and players have replaced tape camcorders and VHS players, and so forth. There's no stopping it, so the best bet is to learn how to best deal with it, not try to turn the tide with a bucket at the beach while whining about how you don't like it.
The electronics are going to keep getting produced, used and discarded. That's reality. The world is not going to suddenly abandon electronic devices and shift back to paper and ink just because Asia is disposing of them in horribly pollutive ways, so you're just going to have to deal with it. News flash: We're not going back to the horse and buggy in order to curtail all the pollution associated with modern powered vehicles either, so take a deep breath, pull up your big boy pants, and figure out how to live with those kinds of facts.
Really? YOu need to add remarks like those? I'm well aware that electronics are here to stay; I'm a user of technology myself, and I don't dispute the value of it. I do dispute wisdom of educational systems which fail to teach the basics such as "times tables" and other basic arithmatic, as well as cursive writing.
First, you haven't shown objectively that "times tables" are NOT being taught. Second, you haven't shown objectively that they NEED to be taught in the modern age, any more than how to use a slide rule needs to be taught to every school child in the modern age where it's far less important.
I realize from the continued rhetoric that surrounds these types of discussions that some of you seem to think that suddenly electrons will cease to flow, and all electronic devices will fail to work, and we'll overnight be thrust back into a pre-industrial civilization, but you haven't shown objectively that such is a realistic outlook for the future either.
If you have a problem with what the schools teach, then get involved with others in the community and correct it. The decisions regarding what to teach and why are made by local school boards.
Again, that may be true where you live, for those of us living in North Igloo Junction, the curriculum is a provincial matter. Even the provinicial teacher's federation has problems making changes, but I don't dispute your point. I choose not to tilt at that particular windmill simply because I have no horse in the race, and thus other than the extorting of funds from me through taxiation, it matters not a whit.
So, are you actually trying to tell me that Canadians have no say in their own educational system? I can understand that there may be a different hierarchy to get there, but you're making noises like Canadian citizens have no say at all in the matter. Seriously?
It's all well and good to cry that we don't teach kids how to use a slide rule. But it's hypocritical when NOBODY NEEDS to use one anymore and EVERYONE, including you, uses a calculator. And like it or not, it's the same with every other technology that's replaced the older ways of doing things.
I don't recall mentioning slide-rules...
They were brought up by someone else in the thread, and they make a good placeholder example of what we're talking about here, which is the replacement of old technology with new, how it will march forward like it or not, and what that means for everyone.
My daughter knows how to do math without a calculator on a napkin, just like I do. She learned it in school, just like I did. My grandaughter is already learning the same thing now in kindergarten and she's all excited about it. Her latest "game" to play with us is what she calls "equals". We take turns asking each other what a number plus another number equals, and then she works it out WITHOUT A CALCULATOR.
Then you sir, are a good parent, and have done her a service that far too many modern parents fail to! I say that in complete sincerity!
I'm not the one that taught her that stuff. The public schools she attended taught her that stuff. I was on the road chasing my career and paying for everything her entire childhood, having her only during the summers and at Christmas. We did not spend that limited time together in "Buck's Math Class 101".
In other words, you missed again.
As far as I can tell, this idea that nobody in the younger generation knows how to do simple maths without a calculator is just more rhetoric from you folks trying to make an argument that modern technology is so much worse than the tech us older folks learned to use. Do they get it drilled in as much as we did? No, but then again, electronic calculators didn't exist when I was learning it, so they HAD to drill it into me and my peers.
No, it's not a lot of rhetoric, at least not in Canada. When I was teaching basic trades training to new sailors fresh out of basic training (about ten years ago), one of the phases of training involved a great deal of what I would call "moderate mental math" and the ability to calculate an equation which was, more or less, a two digit number divided by 60 and mulipled by either 1/4, 1/2 or 3/4. I typically needed to spend at least a half-day going over HOW to do these calculations, and this for people who were, on average, no more than three years out of high-school!
Apparently Canadians are far more ignorant that I'd realized. Thanks for clearing that up.
Look, it's no secret that certain skills are not drilled into every kid in the educations systems these days. There are practical reasons in terms of time and money why not every kid needs to know how to do the kind of math you're talking about anymore, along with a whole host of other things we learned at a time when things were different and we DID generally need those skills to function in most jobs at the time. Those that do need those skills because of career choices in the modern era learn them later as necessary to actually work in those careers.
Whether YOU think that's good or bad is pointless. It is what it is, and if parents want different things to be concentrated on, like doing that kind of math in one's head or on a napkin, then they need to get involved to change it (except in Canada, where the citizens have no say at all in the matter apparently). That's really all there is to it.
You can say you think it's bad, but have you conducted the objective scientific studies to show it as conclusive? No. You base it solely on your gut feeling that it's "bad", probably because it's not what YOU learned, disregarding the fact that the objective TODAY is not to prepare students to enter into the job markets of yesteryear. Education standards aren't formed in a gut-feeling-bubble either, and I think it's important to point that out. There actually ARE people who conduct objective scientific studies associated with education and make their educated recommendations based on the results and conclusions.
Do you REALLY think it matters so much HOW we get to a math answer, as long as we get to it? Do you really think that the whole point of doing math is to do math, or is the point of doing it to get to an answer that is useful for some purpose? If you think it's the former, then why do you use a calculator, a spreadsheet or a database? Why aren't YOU using a slide rule, if it's so all-fired important these days? Why aren't YOU doing all your calculations with pencil and paper if that's the ONLY valid way to get to an answer?
Just stop, already. If you want to go back to banging rocks together, be my guest, but stop wagging your finger at those of us who are eager to move up to the next step in human knowledge and ability.
Again, is it really necessary to add the belittling remarks? I'm not at all adverse to technology, nor advancement. I'm well aware that the slide-rule has been replaced, and I don't think for a second that it's a bad thing. My point was that schools, especially at the junior levels should be concentrating on basics. Providing the children a foundation on which to grow their knowledge, and I don't think that foundation necessarily needs to start off with iPads.
Prove objectively WHY, and show those objective reasons to the people in your country to prove why you're right and they're wrong. Or, if you don't have such a leg to stand on, perhaps you should sit down.
And you actually tried to sidestep my questions. Why DON'T you use those older methods of getting to the answers? Why DO you use modern technology INSTEAD? Let's examine that, seriously. I want to know specifically WHY YOU feel you NEED to be able to do long division on a napkin when YOU never NEED to actually do that anymore. You would be hard-pressed to find a human being over the age of about 10 in North America who does not have a calculator within immediate reach, probably in their pocket or purse or on their hip or already in their hand. They don't NEED a napkin OR the skills to work math out on one.
There was a time when you and I NEEDED that ability, but we don't NEED it anymore, and our children don't NEED it any more than we do anymore. There was a time when the general public NEEDED to know how to care for their horse, but that time has passed, so we don't teach it anymore. Is it a good thing to know? Sure, and some still need that skill. But we have limited resource in terms of time and money to teach our youth, and it needs to be well spent on things they will really NEED.
e-books are here to stay, and I think that's really the bottom line of this conversation. As they replace paper books for very good reasons, Luddites kicking and whining over it notwithstanding, "forcing" their use at $25 per year on people who can easily afford that low cost, while providing them to lower income folks at less or no cost is really no different nor more outrageous or exorbitant than "forcing" families to buy and provide any other basic school supplies, including, in many cases in the past, paper textbooks. That was always especially true in higher education, where such paper textbooks easily cost hundreds of dollars EACH.
A simple look on Amazon at the price of a paper book vs. its e-book version shows the direction this is all going. I always go for the e-book if it's available, and fewer aren't available in that format each day. First, it's cheaper. Second, I can carry and access my entire library with me wherever I go with zero effort. I don't NEED a paper book anymore, let alone stacks and bookshelves full of them.
Total opposites. In the new economy most populations will need less than 30 percent of it working. Increase in efficiency. So the educators really need to decide what they are teaching and training the kids for. And they need something better than just "employment".
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