Are electric cars powered by coal-based electricity any benefit?

[Gary A.]

I don't foresee many installing one in the near future just to charge electric vehicles

Where there is demand you will find access. 5 years ago, I would not expect to pull into a restaurant parking lot and see a couple of charging stations for electric vehicles. Now it's not that uncommon especially in high traffic areas. Pull in, plug in, swipe your credit card and charge your vehicle while you eat.

Charging stations are very common out here. Especially Tesla, (as one would expect), has charging station all over the state. One can easily drive from one end to the other end of California without fear of being stranded. Charging stations are appearing everywhere now, nearly every parking lot, every mall, every fourth restaurant, even parking meters now have charging stations (a few on every block). Hydrogen filling stations are now popping up in LA. Typically, hydrogen is being used mainly in fleet situations, but slowly, experimentally being introduced outside of fleets.

But, how hard would it be for every gas station to set up charging stations ...

 

[pendennis]

But, how hard would it be for every gas station to set up charging stations ...

The design, engineering, and installation processes are already here. It's the cost. Right now, it's around $30K, to convert a single contemporary pump to a charging station, but not likely to drop significantly in price, even with higher installation volumes. Take a small sized service station with a dozen pumps, and the cost is @ $360K. Not enough doughnuts and coffee to subsidize the initial outlay.

Right now, there's a tremendous opportunity to use natural gas to power electrical power plants. Coal is not the answer long term, although the fuel generation conversion processes designed in the 1930's, and continued into the 1970's are still viable. The other solution is nuclear generated power, and that's the best of all.

 

[Gary A.]

But, how hard would it be for every gas station to set up charging stations ...

The design, engineering, and installation processes are already here. It's the cost. Right now, it's around $30K, to convert a single contemporary pump to a charging station, but not likely to drop significantly in price, even with higher installation volumes. Take a small sized service station with a dozen pumps, and the cost is @ $360K. Not enough doughnuts and coffee to subsidize the initial outlay.

Right now, there's a tremendous opportunity to use natural gas to power electrical power plants. Coal is not the answer long term, although the fuel generation conversion processes designed in the 1930's, and continued into the 1970's are still viable. The other solution is nuclear generated power, and that's the best of all.

Giving it more thought, yeah, toss charging stations into existing gas stations and a slight redesign of gas stations to accommodate a 40 minute or so wait. Setup coffee bars, video stations, barber shops, wine tasting, et al for the wait. But long term, a charging station doesn't need the footprint of a gas station ... so long term stations can easily be everywhere. I don't have a fear of nuclear energy, but out here Solar makes a lot of sense. The power utility companies out here are jointly building a huge battery/energy storage facility for wind and solar power generated energy.

 

[smoke665]

@pendennis I'm not if it would even be advisable to convert gas pumps. I don't see the gas/diesel engine disappearing for some time. What I do see is a change in how you think about refilling your electric vehicles. As more and more charging stations become available at parking lots, malls, etc., there will be no need to "drive" to a designated refill point.

 

[Overread]

In my view the biggest issue is batteries.
The best way to charge rechargeable would be to simply have easy to remove batteries in the car; then simply swap them over for fresh ones from a garage. Then you've got charging for overnight/top-ups and you can drop into a garage for a full charge. Of course the downside is that the batteries are expensive and not easy to produce and thus are both valuable and a limited resource. Already electric cars tend to have a lot so trying to have spares in garages might not be financially feasible.

 

[pendennis]

@pendennis I'm not if it would even be advisable to convert gas pumps. I don't see the gas/diesel engine disappearing for some time. What I do see is a change in how you think about refilling your electric vehicles. As more and more charging stations become available at parking lots, malls, etc., there will be no need to "drive" to a designated refill point.

These are numbers that are coming out of California, where the idea is to make electric mandatory in a number of years. They've mandated phasing out fossil fuel vehicles. Even to put charging stations at malls, parking lots, etc., the cost is huge, and a mall would be required to pay huge amounts to upgrade their power stations to allow vehicle recharge. And no one has any idea how much will be too much when it comes to adding charging stations, regardless the location. No one in their right mind will want to have that type of excess capacity just sitting around waiting for someone to arrive for shopping.

IMHO, the "service" station won't disappear, even if they're converted to electric filling stations. There will always be people who will stop for a "refill" in the traditional manner.

I'm still a skeptic when it comes to the conversion anyway. Right now, this country is not increasing its electrical grid fast enough for current demand. The infrastructure here in Michigan is not nearly as reliable as it should be. A windstorm here can put several hundred thousand people out of power in one event, and then it will be days, even with mutual support from surrounding states, for it to be completely restored. I'm sure that we're not alone. It takes extraordinary times and amounts of money to even get a new plant approved.

Nationwide, there are huge numbers of coal-fired and nuclear plants nearing the end of their useful lives, yet too many people oppose anything but "renewable". And renewables, such as windmills are never going to recover their manufacturing costs.

 

[Gary A.]

In my view the biggest issue is batteries.
The best way to charge rechargeable would be to simply have easy to remove batteries in the car; then simply swap them over for fresh ones from a garage. Then you've got charging for overnight/top-ups and you can drop into a garage for a full charge. Of course the downside is that the batteries are expensive and not easy to produce and thus are both valuable and a limited resource. Already electric cars tend to have a lot so trying to have spares in garages might not be financially feasible.

I think electric car batteries are too massive/heavy for an easy swap.

 

[Gary A.]

@pendennis I'm not if it would even be advisable to convert gas pumps. I don't see the gas/diesel engine disappearing for some time. What I do see is a change in how you think about refilling your electric vehicles. As more and more charging stations become available at parking lots, malls, etc., there will be no need to "drive" to a designated refill point.

These are numbers that are coming out of California, where the idea is to make electric mandatory in a number of years. They've mandated phasing out fossil fuel vehicles. Even to put charging stations at malls, parking lots, etc., the cost is huge, and a mall would be required to pay huge amounts to upgrade their power stations to allow vehicle recharge. And no one has any idea how much will be too much when it comes to adding charging stations, regardless the location. No one in their right mind will want to have that type of excess capacity just sitting around waiting for someone to arrive for shopping.

IMHO, the "service" station won't disappear, even if they're converted to electric filling stations. There will always be people who will stop for a "refill" in the traditional manner.

I'm still a skeptic when it comes to the conversion anyway. Right now, this country is not increasing its electrical grid fast enough for current demand. The infrastructure here in Michigan is not nearly as reliable as it should be. A windstorm here can put several hundred thousand people out of power in one event, and then it will be days, even with mutual support from surrounding states, for it to be completely restored. I'm sure that we're not alone. It takes extraordinary times and amounts of money to even get a new plant approved.

Nationwide, there are huge numbers of coal-fired and nuclear plants nearing the end of their useful lives, yet too many people oppose anything but "renewable". And renewables, such as windmills are never going to recover their manufacturing costs.

California has a goal of 100% renewable by 2045. Presently renewables make up about 27%.
California has a goal of 50% clean energy by 2030. Presently, 44% of California's energy generation consumes natural gas. (Natural gas is twice as clean as coal.)

 

[smoke665]

@Gary A. I'm curious, a few years ago there was a move on to put clean air restrictions on over the road trucks entering the port at LA. We had already pulled out of west coast market, so it wasnt a big deal for us, but for those still going, there was a lot of talk about simply boycotting CA completely. If the state moves to 100% renewable does that include trucks and trains?

 

[Designer]

Are there any viable alternative fuel sources other than (dirty) coal, that would make electric cars really that much cleaner?

Heard a report that countries around the world are setting deadlines when all cars on the road have to be electric, or at least a big percentage of the cars.

But is that a smart idea, considering that most of electricity is coal-based? Unless we go nuclear.

(I'm imagining that it's much worse to have coal-powered-electrically-charged cars than regular fuel, because the coal toxins are released into the air in the United States which makes it a local pollutant as opposed to the oil coming from somewhere else. And the cars themselves have probably cleaner Mufflers than the coal manufacturers in the United States. Is that right?)

Modern coal plants have high-tech scrubbers that remove much of the toxic by-products of combustion. They are much cleaner than plants of old.

 

[Designer]

In my view the biggest issue is batteries.
The best way to charge rechargeable would be to simply have easy to remove batteries in the car; then simply swap them over for fresh ones from a garage. Then you've got charging for overnight/top-ups and you can drop into a garage for a full charge. Of course the downside is that the batteries are expensive and not easy to produce and thus are both valuable and a limited resource. Already electric cars tend to have a lot so trying to have spares in garages might not be financially feasible.

Not just using them, but the manufacturing process, including obtaining raw materials is very harmful to the environment.

 

[Gary A.]

@Gary A. I'm curious, a few years ago there was a move on to put clean air restrictions on over the road trucks entering the port at LA. We had already pulled out of west coast market, so it wasnt a big deal for us, but for those still going, there was a lot of talk about simply boycotting CA completely. If the state moves to 100% renewable does that include trucks and trains?

Between the shipping and the trucks the Port of LA's air was extremely polluted. Los Angeles enacted air pollution standards for both. I think the 100% renewable/SB100 is directed purely at energy generators. But I'll look into it.

 

[astroNikon]

Are there any viable alternative fuel sources other than (dirty) coal, that would make electric cars really that much cleaner?

Heard a report that countries around the world are setting deadlines when all cars on the road have to be electric, or at least a big percentage of the cars.

But is that a smart idea, considering that most of electricity is coal-based? Unless we go nuclear.

(I'm imagining that it's much worse to have coal-powered-electrically-charged cars than regular fuel, because the coal toxins are released into the air in the United States which makes it a local pollutant as opposed to the oil coming from somewhere else. And the cars themselves have probably cleaner Mufflers than the coal manufacturers in the United States. Is that right?)

Where are you getting your information from ?

Many coal plants in the US have converted and many more are converting to Natural Gas for electricity generation.
Petro and NatGas are used more than coal in the US nowadays with coal dropping more.
==>Electricity in the United States - Energy Explained, Your Guide To Understanding Energy - Energy Information Administration
==> Mapping how the United States generates its electricity

The test plant in the south to create a cleaner coal plant was shut down and is not only NatGas.
==> Kemper Project - Wikipedia

China still uses coal a lot but are converting over to NatGas. The U.S., now a LNG exporter is having issues getting their LNG through the recent Canal expansion.
==> Market Analysis of Natural Gas for Power Generation in China - ScienceDirect

In Europe ==> Overview of the electricity production and use in Europe

 

[astroNikon]

I've always wanted an electric car since they first became available from GM and Honda in the US. But they were cost prohibited and didn't have the features and requirements that I needed.

One of my cars is a hybrid. The Lincoln Mkz Hybrid. If I stay off the highway I get the best mileage. The Drive to/from work is from 40 to 60mpg on it. Many local trips can be all electric at times or a mix. But many time I've above 60mpg, such as below which I averaged 118.7mpg on a short trip.

Before I bought the Mkz I looked at the sister car the Fusion Hybrid and Fusion Energi (which avgs much more mpg) and other plugins. But the additional cost (need to add in the cost of a charger at home, and home electrical costs to determine a TCO) they actually cost more over time than a hybrid. When the technology reduces a bit, such as the Tesla Model 3 then it will be more affordable.

 

[petrochemist]

Yes, electric vehicles ultimately deliver cleaner air. It is much much easier to eliminate pollutants from a single stationary point source (power plant) than from thousands of mobile pollution sources.

It's not as simple as that.
Cleaning exhaust gases at a large static power plant is certainly easier, but electricity has significant transmission & storage losses, and nearly all the batteries around utilize toxic components...

As yet there is no magic bullet