Are electric cars powered by coal-based electricity any benefit?

[BananaRepublic]

I just want to be the first person to put a 350 small block in a Tesla!

The current Tesla is the fastest production car available at the moment why would want to ruin that with sticking lump of pig iron into it..

 

[BananaRepublic]

My statement wasn't presented as any sort of "authority". It's an observation based on my background in finance, accounting, and systems.

First, thank you for your detailed response. I appreciate it. I also appreciate your finance perspective on the topic, something that's usually not discussed.

Second, the statement that I initially questioned had little to do with finance, rather dead birds and noise pollution. However, I'd appreciate a response from your finance perspective on the social and environmental costs (literal costs) from this. As an engineer (and consultant), I work on a very small portion of what power plants do, and in that small portion, we deal with social and environmental costs of impacts to society and the environment. Any thoughts?

On pollution I find it very strange that people globally dont like wind turbines beacause they spoil the view but their happy to breath in cancer causing engine fumes or bury their garbage in a hole in the ground.

Re finance, The current pcp car finance pushed by manufactures will lead to an another credit meltdown as people will no longer want combustion engines.

 

[astroNikon]

As mentioned, large power plants need reserves at the facility to maintain power output. That's why certain areas of the country are good for other alternative power generation.
Mapping how the United States generates its electricity

With Petroleum, they store the liquid in large storage containers.
Coal in large piles
NG usually in train cars or storage containers (or even underground).
Solar and Wind has to use batteries for storage.

If you have constant winds, then maybe wind can help in power generation.
Constant Sun with battery backup, then Solar is good.
But they still need the distribution grid to provide the power to customers, unless they are more regional/local.

I love solar but it has a large footprint such as this one that was damaged in puerto rico

Where I work we have built a LEEDS platinum and gold buildings to go towards lowering their carbon footprint. The Platinum one I was involved in. Solar, geothermal a nice (though highly expensive) low emissions building that needed state grants to be built.

I do love electric cars but even my analysis made it more expensive than a gas car. The Lincoln though starts at the same price as it's gas version thus it made the choice relatively easy. Though, the batteries degrade over time and need replacing, which are quite expensive.

 

[astroNikon]

I just want to be the first person to put a 350 small block in a Tesla!

The current Tesla is the fastest production car available at the moment why would want to ruin that with sticking lump of pig iron into it..

it beats a lot of cars, just not all of them


You can see tons of videos online of the Tesla beating streetracers, supercars, etc. though.

 

[petrochemist]

On pollution I find it very strange that people globally dont like wind turbines beacause they spoil the view but their happy to breath in cancer causing engine fumes or bury their garbage in a hole in the ground.

Re finance, The current pcp car finance pushed by manufactures will lead to an another credit meltdown as people will no longer want combustion engines.

If I pop down to the local beach, I can see over 120 turbines on a clear day. IMO they improve the view as there's very little out there to see (or photograph) without them!
On one of the occasions when there was something else worth photographing I think they added to the image too:
Wind power - old & new by Mike Kanssen, on Flickr
The 5 turbines that are shore based locally aren't as attractive, but I don't find them a significant eye sore (unlike the numerous new homes being built in the area).

 

[smoke665]

If an internal combustion engine was developed that got 100 miles on highway would electric vehicles still be viable? The other thing that's the elephant in the room, who pays for the roads all vehicles drive on? Currently fuel taxes pay for road construction, if your electric vehicle doesn't buy gas, you're not paying your fair share. The current fuel tax is at odds with energy efficiency as mileage goes up, taxes collected go down.

Astro brought up a valid point, in that energy conservation is a multifaceted plan. We built our house to be energy efficient and to utilize passive solar heating in the winter. There are no moving parts to passive, nothing to break, and nothing to wear out.

 

[Gary A.]

I don't mind wind turbines ... beats lung cancer any day.

 

[Gary A.]

If an internal combustion engine was developed that got 100 miles on highway would electric vehicles still be viable? The other thing that's the elephant in the room, who pays for the roads all vehicles drive on? Currently fuel taxes pay for road construction, if your electric vehicle doesn't buy gas, you're not paying your fair share. The current fuel tax is at odds with energy efficiency as mileage goes up, taxes collected go down.

Astro brought up a valid point, in that energy conservation is a multifaceted plan. We built our house to be energy efficient and to utilize passive solar heating in the winter. There are no moving parts to passive, nothing to break, and nothing to wear out.

In California, we have raised the registration fees and I believe the sale tax on electric vehicles.

 

[pendennis]

First, thank you for your detailed response. I appreciate it. I also appreciate your finance perspective on the topic, something that's usually not discussed.

Second, the statement that I initially questioned had little to do with finance, rather dead birds and noise pollution. However, I'd appreciate a response from your finance perspective on the social and environmental costs (literal costs) from this. As an engineer (and consultant), I work on a very small portion of what power plants do, and in that small portion, we deal with social and environmental costs of impacts to society and the environment. Any thoughts?

The environmental damage I read about is anecdotal, not directly observed. However, spinning blades create their own set of concerns. Beings who live on the leeward side of the windmills do have to contend with noise pollution. Birds fly into the vanes, and there's no practical way to prevent this. The EPA has more or less written off dead eagles and other endangered birds; quite a callous view of conservationism. Does this excuse the problems with fossil fuels? No, but those are constantly worked on by power companies installing smoke stack scrubber and filters, and the constant agency (of all types) monitoring of nuclear power systems.

Right now, fossil and nuclear power sources are by and large contained within finite areas, and their impact has been long studied and acted upon by the companies themselves, or through government regulation. People are comfortable around fossil power, not as much nuclear (although imminently safe).

One of the things I learned with the Three Mile Island incident, was that the operators there did not believe what their instruments were telling them, thereby creating a man-made problem.

I'm not naive to believe that any power solution doesn't have its assets and liabilities, but the panic caused by those wanting immediate conversion to "eco-friendly" solutions seem content with the crushing cost of those conversions, and little known real benefits.

Folks generally know little of the "war" between Tesla and Edison over power generation. The money spent by Edison's allies for DC power spared little in the way of outlandish propaganda to push a system which could not scale upward as demand grew.

 

[Gary A.]

I also don't have a problem with government subsidies for renewable energy and LEED projects. We ALL benefit from cleaner air, cleaner water, cleaner soil. In a pure market based economy it is very very difficult to compete against established methodologies and technologies. I think it is good government which takes a long-term, non-profit, pro-community/people view/approach in attempting to create a world/community/society which is healthy and sustainable, for the people the government represents.

 

[BananaRepublic]

If an internal combustion engine was developed that got 100 miles on highway would electric vehicles still be viable? The other thing that's the elephant in the room, who pays for the roads all vehicles drive on? Currently fuel taxes pay for road construction, if your electric vehicle doesn't buy gas, you're not paying your fair share. The current fuel tax is at odds with energy efficiency as mileage goes up, taxes collected go down.

Astro brought up a valid point, in that energy conservation is a multifaceted plan. We built our house to be energy efficient and to utilize passive solar heating in the winter. There are no moving parts to passive, nothing to break, and nothing to wear out.

In Europe many companies claim there cars can do 100 miles per litre, 3 litres to one US gallon. but the technology used benefits the environment, re climate change, but is bad for people in respect to breathable air quality .

 

[astroNikon]

The environmental damage I read about is anecdotal, not directly observed. However, spinning blades create their own set of concerns. Beings who live on the leeward side of the windmills do have to contend with noise pollution. ...

I recall visiting a friend in Indiana. They live in the middle of nowhere but cornfields. You can hear the hum of the distant turbines all day and all night long. If you do a quick google that hum is a growing problem if turbines are near residences.

 

[BananaRepublic]

I also don't have a problem with government subsidies for renewable energy and LEED projects. We ALL benefit from cleaner air, cleaner water, cleaner soil. In a pure market based economy it is very very difficult to compete against established methodologies and technologies. I think it is good government which takes a long-term, non-profit, pro-community/people view/approach in attempting to create a world/community/society which is healthy and sustainable, for the people the government represents.

Trump isn't doing long term with policies in respect to coal and oil.

 

[BananaRepublic]

The environmental damage I read about is anecdotal, not directly observed. However, spinning blades create their own set of concerns. Beings who live on the leeward side of the windmills do have to contend with noise pollution. ...

I recall visiting a friend in Indiana. They live in the middle of nowhere but cornfields. You can hear the hum of the distant turbines all day and all night long. If you do a quick google that hum is a growing problem if turbines are near residences.

Im not some enviro freak I'm simply saying that there are down side and downsides.

 

[pendennis]

If I pop down to the local beach, I can see over 120 turbines on a clear day. IMO they improve the view as there's very little out there to see (or photograph) without them!
On one of the occasions when there was something else worth photographing I think they added to the image too:
Wind power - old & new by Mike Kanssen, on Flickr
The 5 turbines that are shore based locally aren't as attractive, but I don't find them a significant eye sore (unlike the numerous new homes being built in the area).

Depends on where you want the wind farm. Obviously, the Kennedy's have enough clout so their view of the Atlantic remains unspoiled:
Kennedys, Kochs help kill planned wind farm off Cape Cod