Are electric cars powered by coal-based electricity any benefit?

[AlanKlein]

The federal up-to $7500 tax credit for an electric car survives the new tax legislation. Tesla's Musk is ecstatic. The seas are saved!
Electric-car tax credit retained in Congressional tax reform bill: report

 

[waday]

The federal up-to $7500 tax credit for an electric car survives the new tax legislation. Tesla's Musk is ecstatic. The seas are saved!
Electric-car tax credit retained in Congressional tax reform bill: report

How often have you expressed your disinterest in these programs to your representatives?

 

[smoke665]

@Gary A. Being both pragmatic and just a tad on the lazy side, I'm never opposed to things that will make my life easier or better so long as they don't require additional effort on my part.

As to the Atomic Bomb ultimately saving lives you can't prove or disprove the deaths or lives saved so using "Modus tollens" you might argue the statement is true, but I have to think the quarter of a million Japanese killed by the bomb or their families might disagree. Having a crazy man in North Korea with nuclear weapons and the capability to hit US soil doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling either.

Yes Nuclear Power is clean while it's making power, but leaves a really "dirty mess". The old saying no such thing as a free lunch applies. I still think the use of renewable, sun, wind, or waves holds a better long term solution.

 

[terri]

A few of the comments in this thread are teetering close to political debate, which isn't allowed on the main forum. Some of you may well feel these points warrant digging deeper in that regard, but that means they should be taken to the Subscriber's Forum.

 

[limr]

Okay, we all know that if this continues going off-topic into the realm of the relative merits of government, it's not going to end well. Let's keep the conversation focused on cars and energy and NOT about govermnent.

...and as I was typing, Terri posted essentially the same thing, so now y'all HAVE to listen.

 

[Designer]

I am surprised no one has mentioned another hidden environmental cost of electric cars: nickel mining for the batteries as well as the toxicity of piles of dead batteries.

But... I did! Not in specific terms, but I pointed out that the manufacture and procurement of raw materials is very harmful to the environment. And to the people who work in those industries.

 

[Designer]

To indicate that problems would be solved by shutting the government down ..

Where did that come from?

 

[Designer]

The question in the title once more:

Are electric cars powered by coal-based electricity any benefit?

I wish to highlight one word: "ANY".

While in theory electric cars recharging from mains power would, in theory, contribute to less harmful emissions than a car using an internal-combustion engine. In the total picture, we should include calculations of efficiency losses for the electric vehicle, and (as already hashed out) the environmental and fiduciary costs of the storage batteries and related expenses. I am not aware of any comprehensive study done on that, I'm just wondering out loud if anyone has done it.

 

[waday]

To indicate that problems would be solved by shutting the government down ..

Where did that come from?

Response to AlanKlein

 

[smoke665]

I am not aware of any comprehensive study done on that, I'm just wondering out loud if anyone has done it.

No one really wants to acknowledge or admit the down side. The real problem though is that it would have to be a comprehensive study covering a wide variety of topics from economic to environmental. to be relevant.

 

[Gary A.]

How about Tang? How about an atomic bomb?

Tesla, as an example, with the help of government is now able to offer electric vehicles at a significantly lower price

Not sure I can disagree with you on the Gov. subsidies for research, but at the same time - have you ever tasted Tang??? That stuff is gross? and the atomic bomb??? Not sure that was such a good thing. And Tesla - I'm not sure that an equal amount of investment in established auto makers wouldn't have been a better choice to spend the money.
Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies

Course an even better solution would be for Gov. to simply cut the taxes in the first place rather than thinking they are better at choosing where the money should be spent, but that's another story for another time.

Thanks for the link to Tesla. Reading the article gives some interesting facts. The incentive to buy that costs the nation's taxpayers $7500 per Tesla car plus an additional $2500 in California. Meanwhile the typical buyer makes $320,000 a year and is in the top 1% of earners, maybe even higher. Musk is worth $10 billion mainly at the bequeath of state and federal money paid by gullible taxpayers who've been sold a bill of goods that the rich need an electric sports car to park in one of their three garages in their million dollar homes because it's going to stop global warming and keep the seas from rising. We're all a bunch of saps.

California pays much much more in Federal taxes than it gets back.

 

[Gary A.]

In the mid-1800's, the U.S. government inserted itself into the transcontinental railroad project. The government chose the two railroad companies to connect "east and west". The cost overruns were horrendous, land costs outlandish, and the meeting at Promontory Point was a staged event, as the competitors built parallel lines, which never really met.

Compare that to the construction of the Great Northern Railroad, which was privately funded and built. The owners paid fair prices for land, and still turned a fair profit.

I didn't know we were discussing government efficiency and profit margins. The Federal government doesn't have to make a profit as it can actually create money.

But that doesn't give them license to waste tax dollars and be inefficient.

 

[limr]

Enough talk of the government in the public forums. Take it to the Subscribers Forums or leave it alone.

 

[smoke665]

Going back to the OP's title/question, I don't think you can have a relevant discussion of the question without including the government in that discussion because Uncle Sams fingers are in every aspect, from the time coal comes out of the ground, to the point you turn the key on in your electric vehicle. The Government is the only common denominator across the board.


Footnote: Sorry Limr we posted back to back. Maybe revise my post to say include Government (as it specifically affects the OP's question)?

 

[astroNikon]

Okay, we all know that if this continues going off-topic into the realm of the relative merits of government, it's not going to end well. Let's keep the conversation focused on cars and energy and NOT about govermnent.

...and as I was typing, Terri posted essentially the same thing, so now y'all HAVE to listen.

My car is awesome.