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auto/manual question

jaycar85

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just starting out, and dont want to get stuck on the auto, so im using manual, and the other priority modes. when i take a pic with a manual mode i will switch to auto and take the same pic, i compare the settings on the photos, and see how close i am to the auto mode, just to see if i am in the ball park. i guess my questions is how do i know when my "manual" shot is better than the "auto" shot if they both look "good/ok"
 
"Better" is entirely up to you and how you wanted the picture to look.

Start by visualizing how you want the picture to look. Then compare your images to ***that*** and see what is closest.

All that matters is that you can get to the image in your head. What mode you use to get there doesn't matter, in and of itself. Now in some situations, some modes are easier to get the result you want than others. 90% of the time I use manual aperture and shutter speed, auto ISO and exposure compensation. But with flash, straight manual is usually the best for achieving what I want.

Also be aware that if you just center the exposure meter every time, you're essentially shooting auto but making your fingers do the work.

A lot of photographers shoot manual but center the in camera exposure meter every time. They do this because they believe real photographers shoot manual. But they're still letting the camera make the choices they just get the treasured "M" stamp in their exif data.

The whole point of shooting manual is to deviate from what is "technically correct" because 95% of the time the camera in auto gets a technically correct exposure.
 
"All that matters is that you can get to the image in your head."

This makes more sense

"Also be aware that if you just center the exposure meter every time, you're essentially shooting auto but making your fingers do the work."

That was my next question, because that is what I was doing. Crap I have A LOT to learn!! just when i think im getting some where i find out i am just spinning my wheels. this is probably an impossible question to answer, but where do i need to set my light meter? i know it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I just feel frustrated lol AAHHHhhhh:madass:
 
"All that matters is that you can get to the image in your head."

This makes more sense

"Also be aware that if you just center the exposure meter every time, you're essentially shooting auto but making your fingers do the work."

That was my next question, because that is what I was doing. Crap I have A LOT to learn!! just when i think im getting some where i find out i am just spinning my wheels. this is probably an impossible question to answer, but where do i need to set my light meter? i know it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I just feel frustrated lol AAHHHhhhh:madass:
I visualize the scene, figure out what I want to be middle grey, then spot meter for that. In spot mode your in camera meter will simply tell you how far the spot is from being perfectly in the middle of the histogram.

Also use the digital age to your advantage. Take a shot, look at the histogram and the image in the lcd and decide if you achieved your goals. If you didn't, think about why, try to fix that, take the image again and then reevaluate. It will be frustrating at first, but you'll get the hang of it.
 
figure out what I want to be middle grey,
What do you mean when you say middle grey?

Middle grey is the exact middle of the histogram. It's the middle between shadow and highlight. In a black and white picture it's what we typically judge to be "most grey." In a color picture it's just what we find to be the exact middle between "dark" and "bright."

Proper exposure in the digital age is primarily about handling three regions: highlights, shadows and middle grey.

Your camera's spot meter is basically a middle grey finder. It takes whatever you point the spot at and tells you how far off it is from middle grey. So it's useful to know what you want in your scene to be middle grey because then you can use your camera's spot meter to set for that.

There are other methods for setting exposure, that work better in some scenarios (especially high contrast scenes where there might not be a middle grey), but finding and metering for middle grey is probably the simplest (well, except for just trusting the camera's matrix metering system in an auto mode).
 
just starting out, and dont want to get stuck on the auto, so im using manual, and the other priority modes. when i take a pic with a manual mode i will switch to auto and take the same pic, i compare the settings on the photos, and see how close i am to the auto mode, just to see if i am in the ball park. i guess my questions is how do i know when my "manual" shot is better than the "auto" shot if they both look "good/ok"

there should be no difference if you're using the same metering method.

Example, let's say you're shooting M, and want a narrow DOF. So you pick f/2. Then you meter to determine a shutter speed of 1/500sec based on your ISO setting.

If you shot in A mode and pick f/2, the camera should pick 1/500sec as well, since it's using the same meter and just picking the shutter speed for you--just much faster.

There's no wrong or right--use what works for you to get the exposure you want.

Knowing when to use Auto, P, A, S, M or Auto Focus Points, or single point, or 3D, or dynamic, or spot or matrix or center weighted has incredible value. You don't always have to use them, but having the knowledge in your arensel, makes picture taking that much easier/better and hopefully the end results improve.
 
just starting out, and dont want to get stuck on the auto, so im using manual, and the other priority modes. when i take a pic with a manual mode i will switch to auto and take the same pic, i compare the settings on the photos, and see how close i am to the auto mode, just to see if i am in the ball park. i guess my questions is how do i know when my "manual" shot is better than the "auto" shot if they both look "good/ok"

there should be no difference if you're using the same metering method.

Example, let's say you're shooting M, and want a narrow DOF. So you pick f/2. Then you meter to determine a shutter speed of 1/500sec based on your ISO setting.

If you shot in A mode and pick f/2, the camera should pick 1/500sec as well, since it's using the same meter and just picking the shutter speed for you--just much faster.

There's no wrong or right--use what works for you to get the exposure you want.

Knowing when to use Auto, P, A, S, M or Auto Focus Points, or single point, or 3D, or dynamic, or spot or matrix or center weighted has incredible value. You don't always have to use them, but having the knowledge in your arensel, makes picture taking that much easier/better and hopefully the end results improve.
One important exception beginners should know is the scene modes. The scene modes don't just use the metering system to set exposure, they also use the information of the type of scene you've set. At times they'll sort of build in a certain amount of exposure compensation based on the mode and its reading of what's in the scene. Portrait mode, for example, will calculate how much skin is in the frame and then calculate exposure for that, which doesn't correlate with any metering mode you can select in manual. Matrix metering comes closest, but isn't the same exact thing.
 
just starting out, and dont want to get stuck on the auto, so im using manual, and the other priority modes. when i take a pic with a manual mode i will switch to auto and take the same pic, i compare the settings on the photos, and see how close i am to the auto mode, just to see if i am in the ball park. i guess my questions is how do i know when my "manual" shot is better than the "auto" shot if they both look "good/ok"

IMO, the "look" of the photo is, for several reasons, not all that important in this case. First, most student photographers have significant amounts to learn about simply looking at a photo and coming away with any useful information.

Second, what are you looking for? Exposure values? If you are only aping exposure values of an automatic camera, then using anything more than an automatic camera has wasted your money.

Third, the camera has no "creative" aims when it registers data to set exposure values. The objective set up of the camera as it comes from the manufacturer is most often to simply achieve a properly exposed image in terms of shadows and highlights.

To do this, the camera manipulates "the exposure triangle" by changing aperture, shutter speed and/or ISO values. The camera has no concept of, say, dynamic range, the spread in relative light values between the darkest shadow and the brightest highlight. Dynamic range is, in a sense, a subjective value which can be controlled by the user to maintain useful details in the shadow areas and to not blowout (over expose) highlights to the point they loose their shape and contours. Subjectively, the photographer's intent should be to create an image which invites the viewer to linger over the image and to look more deeply into the image. This is a function of the photographer's creative control over their tools, the camera and lens. The difference between the two is the difference between a work of art and the cheaply mass produced, stamped out by the thousands copies of that piece.

The camera is simply relying on objective data to achieve a final image which is not overly unattractive. As a photographer, your "mind's eye" can and should do a much better job. The problem for most students is how to get what's (possibly) in your head translated into what is in the camera's image.

Many students post here saying they really don't know what they're doing but they've been using the "M" mode for all their work. For the most part, my advice is to not fear the "A" modes. While most modern digital cameras have automatic back up systems in place for the student using "M" (in other words, you're seldom in fully manual control of most modern DSLR's), the automatic modes are, IMO, good learning tools for the student - if they pay attention to what the camera is telling them.

So use the automatic modes but pay attention to which settings the camera will select and learn why the camera would select such settings. Generally, this education can take place at your kitchen table with your camera and your owner's manual in hand.

If you have yet to sit down with your camera and your owner's manual, that should be your first next step. Learning to control the tool you are using is the first step towards knowing how to create something with that tool. For example, if you do not know what metering mode the camera defaults to when set to fully automatic, you don't know what metering mode you might use which would alter your result. Switching to the manual modes and using the same metering method achieves what on your part? As noted, it only gives your fingers a bit of exercise. If you set - or do not override - the exact same settings as the camera has used on full auto, then there should be no difference what so ever between the camera's shot and your shot. That should be simple logic.

Learning the rules of photography is essentially learning when to control the camera's operations, not simply recreating what the camera can do on its own.

Shooting in "portrait" mode means the camera will default to a specific group of options. Selecting "landscape" will mean another group of options are available to the camera's automatic settings. And so on with each selection of another automatic function which your camera offers. Each new mode you select will inform the camera as to which values of the exposure triangle it can manipulate. Yet, consider the fact, looking only at the exposure triangle, the camera will always retain the option to automatically increase the ISO value unless you use a manual mode which prohibits that action. And there are numerous reasons to want to prohibit the camera's tendency to increase ISO.

How do you know when your manual shot is better than the auto shot if they both look "good/ok"?

As I said, don't be afraid to use "AUTO" mode. It's simply another tool the camera's designer has provided for your use. Know what to take away as an education from using the AUTO mode.

The broad answer to your question though is you will know your shot can be better once you have learned when not to simply follow what the camera has done. If all you want is a mostly well exposed photo, never take your camera off full auto mode. The "P/A/S/M" options are there to provide something other than what a $49 point and shoot camera would turn out.

Therefore, you'll know when your shot - taken in whatever mode - is "better" than the automatic shot when you fully understand why you used something other than a fully automatic mode. Until you begin to think about how you can make a better shot (by changing what the camera defaults achieve), there will never be a better shot you can achieve. Until you can begin to control your results beyond the camera's defaults, there is nothing that will ever be better.

In the end, until your thought process and understanding of how to control the camera suggests to you that something other than the camera defaults are required/desired, there is nothing that will give you a truly better photo. If your shots continue to look like the camera's automatic shots, there's nothing particularly bad about your work. There's just nothing that will ever be better about your work.

Learning your camera's operations and how to control them is your first step. Yes, there's a good bit to learn in this hobby. Take it slowly, one thing at any one time and have a plan for how to proceed. We all began at the same level you are at right now.
 
Soufiej,

Very well put, and as i created the thread, and asked the questions i asked, i thought in the back of my head the things you brought out. the questions i asked where quite noob questions that truly dont have right answer. each day i take the camera out of the box i learn a little more, and get a little less frustrated at the machine, even tho its my ignorance i am truly frustrated at. rome was not built in a day nor will my photo skills. thanks again for all the good advice from everyone
 
just starting out, and dont want to get stuck on the auto, so im using manual, and the other priority modes. when i take a pic with a manual mode i will switch to auto and take the same pic, i compare the settings on the photos, and see how close i am to the auto mode, just to see if i am in the ball park. i guess my questions is how do i know when my "manual" shot is better than the "auto" shot if they both look "good/ok"
hardly ever use auto unless it is faster paced shooting, what i will do on occasion is flip over to it and use it for a reference. flip to auto, see what the camera comes up for settings then go back to manual and tweak accordingly. consider it a "double check" of how far off i am going to be toward what i want to do.
 
fjrabon said it best when he noted:

"...be aware that if you just center the exposure meter every time, you're essentially shooting auto but making your fingers do the work."
 
What I find helps is that as you learn photography you have to learn the order of importance.

You'll pick up all kinds of theories on exposure, histograms, expose to the right, action, depth of field, sport, landscape, portraits etc... LOTS of theories.

And it can be hard to mix those theories together if you try to use them all at once, because most times you can't. This is where your own creative vision comes in and where your criteria for a shot become important because they start to tell you what the most important setting is to start with.


As an example. Lets say you want to take a photo of a flower and that you want most of the flower in-focus. Instantly your aperture (which controls depth of field) is your primary setting. That gives you a starting point Now at this stage you might use experience to pick an aperture you find pleasing; or you might use a theory like "small apertures (big f numbers) whilst keeping from going so small that you reach the point where diffraction causes softening (so around f13 to f16 on most lenses).
There you go - now you've got a primary setting; some limits and a rough idea where you're going. Now you can base your shutterspeed and ISO off that.


Note that your primary setting doesn't always define the mode you use directly. Eg above we talked about aperture as the primary, which would suggest that aperture priority is one of the best settings to use; however that need not always be the case so always remain open to use different modes if the situation calls for it.


You sound like you are on the right track and focusing on learning the core of manual mode and using the priority modes as well. Once you get more experience you'll be able to switch between them at will to use whichever is the best for your situation and your style of shooting.


for some idea of what I do these are some common situations and the mode I'll use for them;

Action photography (sports, wildlife) = aperture priority (yep this is one of those primary isn't your key setting). I want a fast shutter speed, however faster and faster only helps the situation. So instead of shooting in, say, shutter priority and having to always change the shutter speed as the light shifts, I instead shoot in aperture priority. Because chances are I won't vary the aperture much, if at all so long as the shutter speed is above my minimum required for a sharp shot (experience teaches this somewhat but around 1/620sec is a good minimum I work with). So I keep the work simple - set the aperture, check the shutter speed is fast enough and shoot - changing the ISO or aperture as required to keep the shutter speed up.

Propeller driven aircraft = shutter priority. Here the shutter priority is the one I want control over because I need a certain speed in order to let the blades blur enough to be pleasing. And because the plane is typically in the sky I can let the aperture do what it wants. (I'd give you the speed I use but I've not done it in a while and can't recall the speed)

Flash (where flash is most if not all of the light contributing to the exposure) = manual mode. Here the cameras meter tries, but it can only work with light reflected from the subject at the time; the ambient light. It can't meter for the pulse of flash light as that isn't there till the flash is fired. So you have to take control; bit more tricky but in this case you set the settings yourself knowing what the flash will make up for the light needed (or hoping it will - hope to knowing depends somewhat on experience and on the approach you use - its a whole other area and best you get control over the camera first and then move onto flash stuff).




And since most of what I do is action or things that might be moving and I'm not using flash all the time - I tend to sit in aperture priority mode (as do a good many people).
 
Get a book on basic photography that explains how to figure how to calculate the exposure you need and how the various exposure modes work. Also, ask someone who really knows how to show you. Asking on a forum like this is confusing.
 

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