Choosing the lens first, then only selecting the body.

[Sw1tchFX]

Before going off to sleep...

I have just compiled a list of "possible" combinations that I won't mind ending up with. (Now, that would certainly be the most important!)

Here goes; (I would like to know what you'll experts think that's all.)

The Nikon D40 with the Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX DG Aspherical HSM

The Nikon D40 with the Nikon 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED AF-S DX VR Nikkor

Or

The Nikon D70s with the (Same lenses as the above).

Maybe I won't mind going for the Tokina 12-24mm f/4 AT-X 124 AF PRO DX also since the Nikon D70s have the build in auto focus motor.

Thanks for all the existing responses, this forum is really cool! :thumbup:

I'd go with the 18-200 on a D70. It balances better and the D70 is a far superior body to the D40. If I was to buy a 12-24 from an off brand, it would be Tokina.

Good!

Do you use the Nikon D70s too?

Yup yup.

 

[zioneffect564]

why not look at the nikon d80 with the 18-135 for a walk around

 

[Sw1tchFX]

The D80 isn't THAT much bteer than the D70 and the 18-200 is a much better lens than the 18-135.

 

[Benjamin_T]

A few things I "felt" pretty disappointed with the Nikon D70s was that...;

It doesn't features a true prismatic/pentaprism TTL viewfinder which could easily provide a brighter and bigger viewfinder view...Instead, it uses a light sapping pentamirror version that absorbs precious light rays (As the light rays have to deflect five times in order to provide you with the scene through the lens in the correct orientation). As a result, the viewfinder will be dimmer and have to be made smaller in order to save as much light as possible. (Magnifying more will only cause more light to be lost...)

Secondly, it doesn't features a true mechanical vertical focal plane run on shutter assembly. Instead, it uses a combined CCD plus mechanical shutter since a true mechanical shutter assembly that goes all the way up to 1/4000 - 1/8000 secs will be very expensive and hard to make (As of that time). As a result, the Nikon D70s have one famous CCD blooming/CCD charge overflow issue at anything from 1/4000 secs and above...The results can be very awful. (See imaging-resource's review of the Nikon D80 and see how a true mechanical shutter can solve the problem, compared to a CCD combined mechanical shutter...)

Thirdly, I was also disappointed to know that the Nikon D70s also does not have the mirror lock up (vibration reduction) feature which would be crucial for long exposure landscapes done in the evening or in the early morning (Or even for macro photography in this case).

The last time I read a review of the Nikon D50 (Which was stated to be the younger brother/cut version of the Nikon D70s), there were 3 cons addressed to it; and they were exactly what I have stated just above. I then expected the older brother/more advance Nikon D70s to address the above 3 issues, since the D70s was also much more expensive than the Nikon D50 during that time; at US$1100 compared to the US$545 of the Nikon D50 (that time). So obviously, the Nikon D70s have given me the impression of being a more superior/advance dSLR camera to the Nikon D50; which was stated to have cut down features by Nikon to make it more affordable to the newbies going up from their P&S cameras...

In the end, you can see why I am disappointed now; that the Nikon D70s have not addressed the 3 cons of the Nikon D50. (Stated at the beginning)

Today, the Nikon D70s is still more expensive than the new Nikon D40 + the kit lens. (Though other than the focus motor, I can't see the D70s being better than the Nikon D40; which does have a slightly larger viewfinder, 2.5" TFT LCD with 230,000 pixels, splendid in camera RAW development, a new modern & sophisticated menu user interface with interchangeable themes, ISO 3200, and a new improved imaging processing algorithm (Solved the "Moire" problem already".)

I don't mean to bring the Nikon D70s down...It was the dSLR that I have praised the most last time, so much that people begin to get fed up with me. So they told me the problems with the Nikon D70s, and I begin to listen to them instead of arguing back.

I often mentioned that the Nikon D70s have the BEST of the BEST high ISO performance around, since it DOESN'T uses ANY or much noise reduction at all at high ISO levels (Even at ISO 1600). I also mentioned that the noise characteristics of the Nikon D70s are "Film like grain" or "Mono-chromic/colorless", instead of having an awful chroma mottle like appearance which looks very electronic and is of the most objectionable of all. I also mentioned that the Nikon D70s maintains the most image details of all at high ISO levels (Including ISO 1600 where it performs the best out there), and that its image at ISO 1600 are the most well defined and natural out there as well. However besides saying all of this already many times, people out there still continued to state that the Nikon D70s has one of the worse high ISO performance of all, and that it's images are noisy and blah blah blah...They slated me as lack of experienced and lack of actual knowledge, they asked me to shut my mouth; basically they just get affected every time I start saying how good the Nikon D70s actually is (Among all the misconceptions of it out there).

So today, I have decided to play the "neutral party role", and just listen to what other people have got to say, and also just inform them on what I have been hearing from the other parties side that's all; such as in this very post of mine now, instead of informing on my discoveries, findings, and (or) research.

Coming back to the topic;

What do you guys think about the Nikon D70s? Are its images really that bad as people have been saying out there? (Be honest) (I personally think they are the best among all; I liked the natural and non processed outputs of it, compared to the other people.) I liked the natural sharpness of the Nikon D70s images as well, due to the fact that it features a thin low pass filter. I liked the fact that the Nikon D70s doesn't uses much or any N.R. to remove all its noise at high ISO levels (Even at ISO 1600). I liked the film like grain noise characteristics of the Nikon D70s. Is the viewfinder such a big deal as people have been making it to be? (When the Nikon D80 was launched, people say that its viewfinder was light years ahead of the D70s). How about the rest? People keep saying that the auto focus of the Nikon D80 is also MUCH improved, is that true?

I have got all the "cons" of the Nikon D70s (in this post) from "other people", or else I wouldn't have known or be lead to believed in them...(The discussion magnitude of the Nikon D70s' cons out there has hesitated my decisions to get it, and furthermore, they have also dampened the high position of the Nikon D70s in my mind, to something questionable.)

Sorry for renting; somehow it all just came out in successions as my past memory unfolds itself!! (OMG, next time I better control myself!)

Sorry.

 

[fmw]

Honestly, Benjamin, I think you've done too much reading on the internet. I got bored trying to read your last post and just gave up. I own Nikon gear and wouldn't suggest you worry about any of it. All of the cameras are competent and work just fine.

I always used to say choose a lens and then get the body that fits. That was in the film days where the body only needed to have a consistent shutter. It is probably a little bit less true today but I do agree that the lens is still more important than the camera.

I'll correct one point. Mirror lock up isn't necessary for long exposures. It is necessary for fairly short exposures - 1/30 to 1 sec. With long exposures, the camera has time to settle down from the movement of the mirror. In a half century of photography I can only remember 1/2 dozen times I used mirror lock up. It is probably just an unimportant has having a screen full of focusing "points" or a built in flash unit.

I have never used all the features on my digital cameras. I don't even know what most of them do and I don't care. I just need the things that make exposures. The rest of it is for internet readers and internet debates.

If you want a Nikon body, pick one that suits your budget and quit worrying about it. Just go make some photographs.

 

[Don Simon]

Just to address some of those issues, most of the dSLRs in this sort of range use pentamirror as opposed to pentaprism viewfinders; with Nikon I believe you need a D80 or higher if you want a pentaprism. I will say that most dSLR viewfinders do seem fairly dim and small when you're used to 35mm SLR viewfinders; but they're still perfectly useable, especially when you mostly use autofocus. Brightness will partly depend on the lens mounted on the camera. Of course the only way to know how adequate the viewfinder is, is to look through it yourself.

Mirror lock-up, IMO, is not necessary for long exposure landscapes. With a very short exposure (i.e. fast shutter speed) the 'camera shake' will be avoided. With a very long exposure, the effects of the vibration will basically be cancelled out. Where mirror lock-up may really come in useful is in exposures of say 1/4 second. I do find mirror lock-up useful for macro photography, although mirror lock-up is not a substitute for a good tripod. Edit: I got beat to that point
P.s. "mirror lock-up" in most modern cameras is actually mirror pre-fire, which also incorporates a self-timer, as opposed to locking up the mirror and letting you shoot when ready.

 

[JIP]

Use the 50mm you have and get a D200
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/407284-REG/Nikon_25235_D200_Digital_Camera_Camera.html

 

[Sw1tchFX]

A few things I "felt" pretty disappointed with the Nikon D70s was that...;

It doesn't features a true prismatic/pentaprism TTL viewfinder which could easily provide a brighter and bigger viewfinder view...Instead, it uses a light sapping pentamirror version that absorbs precious light rays (As the light rays have to deflect five times in order to provide you with the scene through the lens in the correct orientation). As a result, the viewfinder will be dimmer and have to be made smaller in order to save as much light as possible. (Magnifying more will only cause more light to be lost...)

oh no, SO PRECIOUS! I guess I can't see though my viewfinder than.

Secondly, it doesn't features a true mechanical vertical focal plane run on shutter assembly. Instead, it uses a combined CCD plus mechanical shutter since a true mechanical shutter assembly that goes all the way up to 1/4000 - 1/8000 secs will be very expensive and hard to make (As of that time). As a result, the Nikon D70s have one famous CCD blooming/CCD charge overflow issue at anything from 1/4000 secs and above...The results can be very awful. (See imaging-resource's review of the Nikon D80 and see how a true mechanical shutter can solve the problem, compared to a CCD combined mechanical shutter...)

WHAT?! I guess i've never taken a good picture at 1/8000th before.

Thirdly, I was also disappointed to know that the Nikon D70s also does not have the mirror lock up (vibration reduction) feature which would be crucial for long exposure landscapes done in the evening or in the early morning (Or even for macro photography in this case).

MY NIGHT SHOTS!! Yup, guess those are gone too.

The last time I read a review of the Nikon D50 (Which was stated to be the younger brother/cut version of the Nikon D70s), there were 3 cons addressed to it; and they were exactly what I have stated just above. I then expected the older brother/more advance Nikon D70s to address the above 3 issues, since the D70s was also much more expensive than the Nikon D50 during that time; at US$1100 compared to the US$545 of the Nikon D50 (that time). So obviously, the Nikon D70s have given me the impression of being a more superior/advance dSLR camera to the Nikon D50; which was stated to have cut down features by Nikon to make it more affordable to the newbies going up from their P&S cameras...

Oh yeah, because I don't shoot at 1/8000th, 3fps, or used my wirelss flash capability all the time.

Today, the Nikon D70s is still more expensive than the new Nikon D40 + the kit lens. (Though other than the focus motor, I can't see the D70s being better than the Nikon D40; which does have a slightly larger viewfinder, 2.5" TFT LCD with 230,000 pixels, splendid in camera RAW development, a new modern & sophisticated menu user interface with interchangeable themes, ISO 3200, and a new improved imaging processing algorithm (Solved the "Moire" problem already".)

well you get moire when you don't have an antialiasing filter, I guess most medium format digital backs suck too. and the NEF development off a D40 using the same sensor is SO MUCH better than what the D70 can do, OF COURSE!

I don't mean to bring the Nikon D70s down...It was the dSLR that I have praised the most last time, so much that people begin to get fed up with me. So they told me the problems with the Nikon D70s, and I begin to listen to them instead of arguing back. I often mentioned that the Nikon D70s have the BEST of the BEST high ISO performance around, since it DOESN'T uses ANY or much noise reduction at all at high ISO levels (Even at ISO 1600). I also mentioned that the noise characteristics of the Nikon D70s are "Film like grain" or "Mono-chromic/colorless", instead of having an awful chroma mottle like appearance which looks very electronic and is of the most objectionable of all. I also mentioned that the Nikon D70s maintains the most image details of all at high ISO levels (Including ISO 1600 where it performs the best out there), and that its image at ISO 1600 are the most well defined and natural out there as well. However besides saying all of this already many times, people out there still continued to state that the Nikon D70s has one of the worse high ISO performance of all, and that it's images are noisy and blah blah blah...They slated me as lack of experienced and lack of actual knowledge, they asked me to shut my mouth; basically they just get affected every time I start saying how good the Nikon D70s actually is (Among all the misconceptions of it out there).

(deletes all images taken at ISO 1600) ever seen ISO 1600 film? and you think digital looks chunky..

What do you guys think about the Nikon D70s? Are its images really that bad as people have been saying out there? (Be honest) (I personally think they are the best among all; I liked the natural and non processed outputs of it, compared to the other people.) I liked the natural sharpness of the Nikon D70s images as well, due to the fact that it features a thin low pass filter. I liked the fact that the Nikon D70s doesn't uses much or any N.R. to remove all its noise at high ISO levels (Even at ISO 1600). I liked the film like grain noise characteristics of the Nikon D70s. Is the viewfinder such a big deal as people have been making it to be? (When the Nikon D80 was launched, people say that its viewfinder was light years ahead of the D70s). How about the rest? People keep saying that the auto focus of the Nikon D80 is also MUCH improved, is that true?

Well according to you, the D70 can't take a picture worth a damn.

I have got all the "cons" of the Nikon D70s (in this post) from "other people", or else I wouldn't have known or be lead to believed in them...(The discussion magnitude of the Nikon D70s' cons out there has hesitated my decisions to get it, and furthermore, they have also dampened the high position of the Nikon D70s in my mind, to something questionable.)

Sorry for renting; somehow it all just came out in successions as my past memory unfolds itself!! (OMG, next time I better control myself!)

Sorry.

Shopping for a camera really isn't that complicated. You're overanalyzing. Go into a camera store and feel a camera and get the Nikon that's more comfortable. simple. done.

 

[Benjamin_T]

Alright guys, thanks so much for the enlightenment and clarification. (You are more like scolding the guys on the behalf of me.)

So to conclude;

Mirror lock up is NOT THAT important, and I should be able to live WITHOUT it!! (Hurray!!)

The whole viewfinder matter is now NONSENSE!! The viewfinder matter is NOT SUCH A BIG DEAL AFTER ALL!! (Booo to those guys in the other forum who often make the viewfinder issue seems like a matter of life and death, or the deal breaker!)

I am not sure about the CCD combined mechanical shutter issue though, since I often experienced shooting outdoor portraits with ISO 125 film at F/1.8; I often reached pass 1/4000 secs to 1/8000 secs...where the Nikon D70s has some issues with the CCD charge bleedings at those shutter speeds.... (According to imaging-resource; one page of the Nikon D80's review.)

Regarding the I.Q. and high ISO performance of the Nikon D70s; I certainly think that it is one of the top out there! (Not kidding at all.)

Regards.

 

[Mike_E]

Benjamin, check which lenses the D70 will meter with as compared to the others. It's still about the lenses but if you have a larger selection to choose from.. (BTW.. manual focus is still valid and even with the smaller focus area it the subject isn't moving you can get 2 lenses for the price of 1-manual to auto-focus)

mike

 

[Benjamin_T]

Benjamin, check which lenses the D70 will meter with as compared to the others. It's still about the lenses but if you have a larger selection to choose from.. (BTW.. manual focus is still valid and even with the smaller focus area it the subject isn't moving you can get 2 lenses for the price of 1-manual to auto-focus)

mike

All the lenses I have listed in this thread will meter perfectly with the Nikon D70s. (Correct?)

As for manual focus, I certainly don't plan on doing it if I can avoid it. (BTW, would the viewfinder of the Nikon D70s be adequate for manual focusing?) [Another thing people "In general this time" often talked about...]

 

[Sw1tchFX]

The only time the CCD goes wonky on me is when I shoot directly into the sun.

 

[Benjamin_T]

The only time the CCD goes wonky on me is when I shoot directly into the sun.

Alright, so it only happens in such extremes...(That was exactly what imaging-resource did to the Nikon D70s and the Nikon D80 in the review...)

So I hope it wouldn't be an issue if I don't point the camera (D70s) at any super bright light sources. (The CCD charge bleed really did looked awful...)

 

[Sw1tchFX]

The only thing i've found to be bright enough to do that is the sun itself.

 

[OmlessWanderer]

I am not sure about the CCD combined mechanical shutter issue though, since I often experienced shooting outdoor portraits with ISO 125 film at F/1.8; I often reached pass 1/4000 secs to 1/8000 secs...where the Nikon D70s has some issues with the CCD charge bleedings at those shutter speeds.... (According to imaging-resource; one page of the Nikon D80's review.)

If you're talking about portraits(and not shooting directly at the sun like switchfx said) wouldn't a polarizer or a neutral density filter generally fix this problem anyway?