Color accurate Camera for Car photography

[ParadiseBizz]

Hey im really tired.

Im looking for a Camera that gives me Most accurate colors.

Im so tired of Reading and trying around, idont have words for that. I try for years for a solution.

We using CRI95 flouriscent Lights with 6500k and varoius LED Lights, also Hensel Studio flashes.

We try Colorchecker Digital with Xrite Software, Basiccolor Input, Lumariver.

We try different Cameras over years (5D MKII, 5Ds R, EOS R, Sony A7III) and now i buyed a EOS R5, hoping Standard Camera Profile for ACR was good enough to get good colors.

But at least i See better and more accurate colors from my Pixel Phone Camera.

Sometimes its Not even near the Color that i See in Front of me.

I dont want to Spend 20k for a Hasselblad or Something when my Phone can do a better Job.

Any ideas?

Look at the Brown from Interieur. On left Side R5, right EOS R both RAW with ACR (Camera Standard), with Exterieur taken with Google Pixel, Color real accurate.

Having a greyscale card or color chart with you is crucial, and always use it for the first image. So now you can make a white balance correction in Lightroom or whatever program you're using. But this only works if your monitor is color calibrated, like this one: https://amzn.to/3DYUgxF That's what I have. So you truly see the colors how they come out

 

[NS: Nikon Shooter]

Im looking for a Camera that gives me Most accurate colors.

Understand this:

NO sensor of mineral making will render the organic colours you're
after, that's why it is often spoken of "colour science". In this, gear
like my Nikons have provided the most satisfactory results when it
is used with a proper converter.

 

[RacePhoto]

I see a few who answered what I see as the plain and simple. Mixed lighting, end of story. It's not the camera.

 

[snowbear]

I guess the OP figured it out; they haven't been back since December 11.

 

[RacePhoto]

Yeah I'm holding back from what I really think of some of this.

From the start, LED, Daylight, (what time of day?) Florescent, flashes and who knows what else. It's just creating the situation that's impossible to fix. I've made the mistake and had daylight (real from the Sun) that slipped in to some twist tubes food lighting. You can take out the yellow green, (from the fluorescent) but it's still ugly. That and the real colors are lost forever.

Getting a car color right or even close in mixed lighting is just going to be torture. Auto paint colors are very specific to the makers.

Some days I question my own decision to standardize on 6500K for the light stand and overhead panels. Close enough for Rock and Roll when using a flash along with them. IF I did.

You can buy all kinds of lighting that calls itself "Daylight" but they can vary according to the company's opinion. Some don't list on their packaging, or didn't in the past, and writing them might be the only way to get a real answer. I only buy bulbs, lights or anything else now, that lists the color temperature.

The OP mentioned CRI rated bulbs. If anyone here hasn't gone into that, this is a good basic explanation.

A Standard for Lighting Color Preference?

www.nist.gov

Outdated Standard: The higher the CRI score, the more natural objects should look when illuminated. A score of 100 is considered “perfect.” Most good white light lamps get scores of 80 or higher.

 

[360carstudio.de]

I guess the OP figured it out; they haven't been back since December 11.

Nope, but this tread only reminds me not to discuss with people wo have way less experince and never heard about color profiles.

No color temprature mix in our studio and we use right wb, but thanks for this "pro" tips!

Maybe i ask wrong... someone knows a good camera with a color accurate standard profile for ACR?

 

[smoke665]

Nope, but this tread only reminds me not to discuss with people wo have way less experince and never heard about color profiles.

Wow, maybe you are in the wrong forum. So many people have commented trying to help you, but instead of being grateful you've taken to insulting those who actually do have the experience to help. Maybe you need a forum that explains the art of listening.

Maybe i ask wrong... someone knows a good camera with a color accurate standard profile for ACR?

The whole purpose of a RAW file is to provide a set of data, free from any distractions or additions added by the camera. A file that you can then manipulate to the edit you want. If you're relying on a profile to meet your needs that's your first mistake. Profiles are nothing more than a specific set of editing instructions. Using a good calibrated monitor and a Color Checker as your first shot, will allow you to set an accurate color palette. If that's not close enough take it into PS and color grade with HSB or LAB specific colors.

However you're also failing to realize that the light reflected on your sensor is also affecting color to a point that corrections may or may not be perfect, that's why it's important that you avoid mixed temperatures and avoid underexposing, because the value and intensity of colors are affected by the amount of light. In lower light, colors appear darker and less intense. As you increase the amount of light, the saturation lightens, and the intensity increases until you reach the true color. I did a little research on the fluorescent bulbs you're using. You'd need 3-4 bulbs just to equal the Lumen of one 400 watt strobe. Not to mention the color variations that occur each time a fluorescent bulb cycles.

Frankly you're running around in a circle trying to find fault with everything but the real problem.

 

[snowbear]

Wow, maybe you are in the wrong forum. So many people have commented trying to help you, but instead of being grateful you've taken to insulting those who actually do have the experience to help. Maybe you need a forum that explains the art of listening.



The whole purpose of a RAW file is to provide set of data, free from any distractions or additions added by the camera. A file that you can then manipulate to the edit you want. If you're relying on a profile to meet your needs that's your first mistake. Profiles are nothing more than a specific set of editing instructions. Using a good calibrated monitor and a Color Checker as your first shot, will allow you to set an accurate color palette. If that's not close enough take it into PS and color grade with HSB or LAB specific colors.

However you're also failing to realize that the light reflected on your sensor is also affecting color to a point that corrections may or may not be perfect, that's why it's important that you avoid mixed and temperatures and avoid underexposing, because the value and intensity of colors are affected by the amount of light. In lower light, colors appear darker and less intense. As you increase the amount of light, the saturation lightens, and the intensity increases until you reach the true color. I did a little research on the fluorescent bulbs you're using. You'd need 3-4 bulbs just to equal the Lumen of one 400 watt strobe. Not to mention the color variations that occur each time a fluorescent bulb cycles.

Frankly you're running around in a circle trying to find fault with everything but the real problem.

This, exactly. Good luck in your quest.

 

[360carstudio.de]

Wow, maybe you are in the wrong forum. So many people have commented trying to help you, but instead of being grateful you've taken to insulting those who actually do have the experience to help. Maybe you need a forum that explains the art of listening.



The whole purpose of a RAW file is to provide a set of data, free from any distractions or additions added by the camera. A file that you can then manipulate to the edit you want. If you're relying on a profile to meet your needs that's your first mistake. Profiles are nothing more than a specific set of editing instructions. Using a good calibrated monitor and a Color Checker as your first shot, will allow you to set an accurate color palette. If that's not close enough take it into PS and color grade with HSB or LAB specific colors.

However you're also failing to realize that the light reflected on your sensor is also affecting color to a point that corrections may or may not be perfect, that's why it's important that you avoid mixed temperatures and avoid underexposing, because the value and intensity of colors are affected by the amount of light. In lower light, colors appear darker and less intense. As you increase the amount of light, the saturation lightens, and the intensity increases until you reach the true color. I did a little research on the fluorescent bulbs you're using. You'd need 3-4 bulbs just to equal the Lumen of one 400 watt strobe. Not to mention the color variations that occur each time a fluorescent bulb cycles.

Frankly you're running around in a circle trying to find fault with everything but the real problem.

Yeah, what should i say, have all that, and it shows me perfect how bad the R5 and the profiles for acr replicate colors, DPP is not usable, slow and bad workflow. We use an LG 34WK95U calibratet with i1 Pro and LG Calibration Studio.

As i say earlier, i also have Colorchecker Digital SG, Colorchecker Pocket and Xrite Greycard.

Color Checker is a worse product that is not pretty accurate, only if you measuring your specific target with a expensive colorimeter, otherwise its not really usable. Sadly enough you have to pay hundreds of dollar for third party software (Basicolor Input, also have that) to make the checker usable, the xrite software is a total joke. Xrite take enough of my money...

We have 80 of the 6500k 58w Bulbs, that makes really enough light.

Greatest problem is yellow. Most camears we tryed shows nearly orange and not yellow. Thats why cameras try to show better skin tones, not helpful. Question is, why phones have not the problem with that? Why they can show the matching color under same light conditions?

 

[smoke665]

Greatest problem is yellow. Most camears we tryed shows nearly orange and not yellow. Thats why cameras try to show better skin tones, not helpful.

First off a camera sensor doesn't pull random colors out of thin air, it records reflected light and shadow. Canon uses a Bayer sensor array (at least for now), which uses a simple strategy: capture alternating red, green and blue colors at each photosite, and doing it in a way that twice as many green photosites are recorded as either of the other two colors. Values from these photosites are then intelligently combined to produce full color pixels using a process called "demosaicing". Every manufacturer has their own proprietary algorithm which might give slightly more favoritism to one or the other. My Pentax has a tendency to saturate reds and greens. If you're saving your files as JPEG, then your camera is using more proprietary algorithms to produce an image "it thinks" is correct. That's why it's important to save your files as RAW and edit post. Use a ProPhoto workspace and Adobe Color for the most accurate reproduction. Forget about trying to use a profile, because no two images will be the same.

To display an image on a device you have to first convert the RAW file to a sRGB JPEG. This image will be accurate when displayed on an sRGB-compliant device.” Given this information, and the profile of the display it’s to be shown on, it’s the job of the color management system to ensure the “best” (most accurate) colors result in the final displayed scene. The problem is that the device gamut may not be wide enough to display all the colors in the sRGB file (out of gamut). When that happens you get inaccurate color estimates. Cell phones use CMS which has both the display and image profile information, it “knows” the image was created expecting the sRGB color characteristics, and it also “knows” how the display differs from those. With that information, it can correct all of the RGB values in the image so they map to the correct colors. For accurate work you should soft proof your image before exporting it using an appropriate profile, I use the International Color Consortium (ICC) profile for soft proofing. You can also embed a profile in the sRGB file, but differing display devices may or may not work with it.

Second up, modern car finishes are chromatic, in that they change colors depending on how the light is reflected, and the intensity of the light. Sometimes that chameleon effect can be quite dramatic. In this example you have a car shot in two entirely different lighting scenarios, one studio, one ambient. With a color temperature of 9200 that's way to blue for normal ambient light. The normal temp for an ambient light shot at noon is 5500. Your brain automatically corrects for differing light temperatures....you know you're looking at a yellow car, your brain sees a yellow car. Your camera doesn't, it records the temperature of the the light reflected.

It's almost a given that accurate color rendering is going to require Color Grading. Now here is a rough example of a color graded photo, where I stole the color from one and changed the other. You really need a raw file to do this, so I didn't spend a lot of time, it's close but still could be tweaked, you get the idea. You are in charge of the edit that produces your final image, not the camera, not a profile.

In addition to the chromatic paint, cars are a mass of curves and bumps, each reflecting light differently. Color is a generic term, that encompasses Hue, Tint and tone. Hue refers to the dominant Color Family, Tint is any Hue with white added, and Tone is any Hue with gray added. How light is reflected from the shadows vs highlights will change the color. If you really want accurate color you need to first, set your WB using a target as your first shot EACH time your light changes. Open the WB image in LR, set the exposure so the histogram shows a full data file, then using your eye dropper, set your white balance. Now set the White point and Black point this is important for accurate color. Sync this to all the images in your series. Now you can adjust your other settings. Once you have the basic general edits in LR, take it into PS to color grade. If you can obtain the RGB readings from a paint sample, great. If you can't you use an image that you know is the correct color and sampling the the highlights, shadows, and midtones then average them, that will be your base line RGB reading, that you can then use to color grade your image.

Because of the issues noted above, most car photographers that I've seen will do a composite of multiple layers (I've seen as many 40-50 layers) of individual exposures of individual pieces of the car. They can then manipulate those individually and blend them.

Solving problems is like the old saying "How do you eat an elephant.....one bite at a time". I believe you have multiple problems ranging from lighting to exposure to editing. The only way to resolve them is to work on one thing at a time. You have to be willing to discard something if it isn't working, and try something different, but fix one issue before you move on. Getting accurate color is not that difficult, unless you make it so.

 

[AlanKlein]

As a former pro photographer, portrait studio owner and denizen of the darkroom - who happens to be partially COLOR-BLIND, I can offer my $0.02 worth of experience: First (and most importantly) you NEED to get an accurate color temperature meter, to be able to measure BOTH the color-temp of the Ambient light (illumination source) and the light Reflected from the subject. Without that info, ANY camera (digital or film) and ANY light source is a complete CRAPSHOOT. (In the case of film, you also need a good understanding of the Particular film's color response curves; digital sensors are a little more linear in that regard these days). You also need Standardized color samples with which to calibrate your entire process. Also, remember "there's no such thing as 'neutral' light" - that's an advertising buzzword; Measure that color temp! When you get to Photoshop etc and a computer monitor - GET A CALIBRATOR! Your eyes are NO real judge of what is Correct Color. And, as others have alluded, white balance is important, but is likely Not the problem. I strongly suspect you don't have a handle on the color temps of your light source(s).

Jim, Can you explain simple terms for a layman, the difference between White Balance and Color Temperature? How do they inter-relate? How do you know which one is correct or incorrect?

 

[smoke665]

@AlanKlein I learned yesterday that you and a friend of mine are neighbors.

I'm not Jim, but I use Understanding White Balance explanation, where WB correction removes the unrealistic color casts so that objects that appear white in person, appear white in your image. Color temperture describes the spectrum of the light (color). In person, your brain automatically corrects, it knows white is white, so you see white. A camera records reflected light, making no such adjustments.

As to how I know it's correct, it depends on the degree of accuracy I need. For every day stuff I use my eyes. For more precise work, I use a Colorchecker. It's important to note that before you set the WB you should adjust the exposure to a full histogram (Not blown or underexposed). Once you set the WB then set the White point and Black point.

 

[AlanKlein]

@AlanKlein I learned yesterday that you and a friend of mine are neighbors.

I'm not Jim, but I use Understanding White Balance explanation, where WB correction removes the unrealistic color casts so that objects that appear white in person, appear white in your image. Color temperture describes the spectrum of the light (color). In person, your brain automatically corrects, it knows white is white, so you see white. A camera records reflected light, making no such adjustments.

As to how I know it's correct, it depends on the degree of accuracy I need. For every day stuff I use my eyes. For more precise work, I use a Colorchecker. It's important to note that before you set the WB you should adjust the exposure to a full histogram (Not blown or underexposed). Once you set the WB then set the White point and Black point.

DOn;t you set the histogram to full range by adjusting the black and white points? Are those the same as adjusting Levels?

 

[smoke665]

DOn;t you set the histogram to full range by adjusting the black and white points? Are those the same as adjusting Levels?

From above post " Color is a generic term, that encompasses Hue, Tint and tone. Hue refers to the dominant Color Family, Tint is any Hue with white added, and Tone is any Hue with gray added." Setting the exposure first establishes the Bightness, and to some extent the Hues. The ideal file has 255 shades of tonal values , from 0,0,0 black to 255,255,255. Setting the White Point and Black Point establishes a full range of tonal values, setting the Hue and Tone.

The quickest way to set the White point in LR is to go to the White slider hold down the alt key (cmd on mac) and use the mouse to move the slider. The screen will go black. Move the slider to the right till you just see white specs poking through. You do the same on the Black slider. The screen will go white, move it to the left until you see black poking through.

 

[AlanKlein]

From above post " Color is a generic term, that encompasses Hue, Tint and tone. Hue refers to the dominant Color Family, Tint is any Hue with white added, and Tone is any Hue with gray added." Setting the exposure first establishes the Bightness, and to some extent the Hues. The ideal file has 255 shades of tonal values , from 0,0,0 black to 255,255,255. Setting the White Point and Black Point establishes a full range of tonal values, setting the Hue and Tone.

The quickest way to set the White point in LR is to go to the White slider hold down the alt key (cmd on mac) and use the mouse to move the slider. The screen will go black. Move the slider to the right till you just see white specs poking through. You do the same on the Black slider. The screen will go white, move it to the left until you see black poking through.

There was a conflict in your earlier post that I still don;t understand. "As to how I know it's correct, it depends on the degree of accuracy I need. For every day stuff I use my eyes. For more precise work, I use a Colorchecker. It's important to note that before you set the WB you should adjust the exposure to a full histogram (Not blown or underexposed). Once you set the WB then set the White point and Black point."