Color management issue, driving me insane

[focasa]

Hi Folks,

I'm new here. My name is Sander and I'm involved in photography for a few years. Now that I'm getting more "advanced", there is something that is driving me insane and it has to do with color management.
There is a huge difference between the way I see my photo in Photoshop and on my screen in the photoviewer once saved. I've tried all the options that I know of. I have converted the files to sRGB before saving. I've tried to save the file using the "Save for Web" option. From there I've tried different color profiles but I'm just stuck with this difference.
Depending on the colors in the photo, the difference is small or big. But I just can't put my finger on it why this is happening.

And... to make things even more complicated... It differs per site how my photo is being shown. For example, if I would display this photo on Facebook, it would be shown as the photo on the right.
If I would upload it to Twitter or LinkedIn, it would be shown as the photo on the left.

It has to be some kind of color management thing and it's driving me insane. Does anyone have an explanation on why this is happening and what I can do about it?

Thanx a million guys!!

 

[KmH]

While the web is sRGB not all browsers or web sites are color managed.
Those that are color managed don't all use the same color management settings.
You have no control once you put a photo out there on the Internet.

What is the bit depth of your computer display? Bit depth is about how many colors your computer display can show?
Photoshop 's minimum requirement for a computer display is a 16-bit color depth.

 

[focasa]

Hi,

My monitor has, according to the specs, a 1.07 billion (8-bit + FRC) color depth. (Dell 2713H)
I'm processing the photos in Photoshop in a 16bit environment (ProPhotoRGB) and convert them to 8bit sRGB when saving them for the web.

I can understand the website thing with color management but why is the difference in showing the photo in Photoshop and showing the saved photo with Windows photoviewer so big? It's both displayed on the same screen.

 

[Ysarex]

How is your monitor calibrated? The problem may in part be there.

Joe

edit: Do you have Photoshop's working color space set to ProPhoto?

 

[KmH]

We can set Camera Raw to ProPhoto RGB and then open those files in Photoshop.
Otherwise we can't set Photoshop's working color space to ProPhoto RGB.

With a ProPhoto RGB image file open in Photoshop we also have to be sure we have Photoshop set up for 16-bit edits and not 8-bit edits.
Not all Photoshop tools, functions, and capabilities are 16-bit capable. With some tools the math is so involved it would take way to long for the application to crunch the numbers. Tools that aren't 16-bit capable are grayed out when 16-bit mode is activated, regardless the color space or file type.
To use a grayed out tool (not 16-bit capable) we have to change the Photoshop mode to 8-bits.

 

[KmH]

My monitor has, according to the specs, a 1.07 billion (8-bit + FRC) color depth. (Dell 2713H)

8-bits with the FRC algorithm give you essentially the same color gamut a 10-bit display can give.
Your display still does not meet Photoshop's minimum display requirements.
System requirements | Photoshop

• 1024 x 768 display (1280x800 recommended) with 16-bit color and 512 MB of VRAM (1 GB recommended)*

Make sure you have Windows properly configured - Change color management settings

 

[Ysarex]

We can set Camera Raw to ProPhoto RGB and then open those files in Photoshop.
Otherwise we can't set Photoshop's working color space to ProPhoto RGB.

Joe

 

[focasa]

Thanx for all the replies.

@Ysarex:
My monitor is calibrated with a Spyder Express but I don't think it has anything to do with monitor calibration. I basically doesn't matter is my screen is calibrated. I've resetted my screen back to factory settings, tried different screen modes, re-calibrated etc... but that did not solve the issue.
I'm opening my photos out of Lightroom. (I do some basics RAW adjustments there and open them in Photoshop to finalize them) From there LR is setup to export them as 16bit ProPhotoRGB TIFF files.
Just checked the color setting in Photoshop and when the profile of the photo has been set to 16bit ProPhotoRGB, the color profile still is sRGB. Could that be a reason for the difference, even when I'm converting the photos to sRGB before saving or exporting for web?

@KmH:
The 16 bit monitor, do you mean the actual hardware with this or the Windows setting where you set the monitor to 16bit? Bit confused there about that topic.

 

[Alexr25]

My monitor is calibrated with a Spyder Express but I don't think it has anything to do with monitor calibration.

That's your problem, or to be more precise that's Photoviewers'. problem.
Photoveiwer is an old program and can only read ICC color profile files that are written in the old ICC version 2 file format. Most monitor profiling programs by default write the color profile files in the newer and better ICC version4 format. Windows Photoviewer can't read ICC file in this format.
The fix is either to find a better display program than Windows Photoviewer or force Spyder Express to output the monitor profiles in ICC version 2 file format.

 

[jaomul]

I had something similar some months back. It was when I upgraded my laptop. I was going around in circles for a while. I eventually used Picassa as default photo browser with color management ticked and I saw photos on my computer as I had outputted them from Lightroom or Photoshop

 

[Ysarex]

My monitor is calibrated with a Spyder Express but I don't think it has anything to do with monitor calibration.

That's your problem, or to be more precise that's Photoviewers'. problem.
Photoveiwer is an old program and can only read ICC color profile files that are written in the old ICC version 2 file format. Most monitor profiling programs by default write the color profile files in the newer and better ICC version4 format. Windows Photoviewer can't read ICC file in this format.
The fix is either to find a better display program than Windows Photoviewer or force Spyder Express to output the monitor profiles in ICC version 2 file format.

He's not using Windows Photoviewer. He's using the Windows new Photos app -- not to say Photos isn't part of the problem. Since he's noted variations between Facebook and Twitter as well there's likely more to this.

Joe

 

[Ysarex]

Thanx for all the replies.

@Ysarex:
My monitor is calibrated with a Spyder Express but I don't think it has anything to do with monitor calibration. I basically doesn't matter is my screen is calibrated. I've resetted my screen back to factory settings, tried different screen modes, re-calibrated etc... but that did not solve the issue.
I'm opening my photos out of Lightroom. (I do some basics RAW adjustments there and open them in Photoshop to finalize them) From there LR is setup to export them as 16bit ProPhotoRGB TIFF files.
Just checked the color setting in Photoshop and when the profile of the photo has been set to 16bit ProPhotoRGB, the color profile still is sRGB. Could that be a reason for the difference, even when I'm converting the photos to sRGB before saving or exporting for web?

@KmH:
The 16 bit monitor, do you mean the actual hardware with this or the Windows setting where you set the monitor to 16bit? Bit confused there about that topic.

One of these days I'll remember to ask all the questions in one post. So you're using Windows and now the question is Windows 8 or 10? I'm not sure that it matters.

Like many I just recently upgraded to Windows 10 and so I have the newest version of Photos installed. For what it's worth my version of Photos on Windows 10 is doing the same thing as yours. I do not however have problems with the appearance of photos uploaded to various Internet sites.

The issue with Photos may well be as Alex has suggested and is an ICC version problem. I suspect it's not specifically Photos but is system wide. You've given me a Sunday morning project and I'm starting to investigate.

The working space in Photoshop and your workflow: What you're doing is fine and correct. LR forces ProPhoto and your output to Photoshop should be a ProPhoto 16 bit file. You have Photoshop's working space set to sRGB (the default) which is fine. When you open an image in Photoshop your ProPhoto color space is maintained and that is in fact your working space until you do the conversion to sRGB. That conversion can cause very minor changes in the appearance of an image depending on the original color content but nothing like the screen shot you presented.

So you're good there.

Back soon with more info.

Joe

 

[Ysarex]

Update:

Definitely a Windows system level problem for me. Windows Photos, MS Edge and MS IE all display the photo one way (wrong) while all photo processing programs (Photoshop, PhotoNinja, Capture One, etc.) AND FIREFOX display the photo correctly.

The difference is very minor but real enough to pay attention.

Joe

 

[focasa]

Hahaha, no worries @Ysarex, I'm already glad you guys here are helping me out!

About the Windows version, I am now running on W10 but had the similar thing going on running on W8.1 as well. Can't honestly remember if it already started with Windows 7.
When I'm checking the ICC profiles I can see 2. One from Spyder *(Spyder3Express.icm) and one from Dell (U2713H.icm).
The difference in color is bigger with colorful photos (makes sense).
I will try some other photoviewers, including Picasa and will also give Firefox a try.

But basically... if this issue is system wide and other people are using the default viewing apps and Internet Explorer or Chrome... that means they will always see the photos differently?

In Photoshop, when exporting to Web, there is an option to include the document profile. I've tried that option once and for the default photoviewer (either the viewer app from W8/W10 or the desktop application) it didn't make any difference. Did not try it when putting photos online on different sites.

Can it also vary per site how they display a photo? For example, a clean headshot can look good on FB but when shows on LinkedIn, the colors become reddish and people tend to look like tomatoes.

And finally, sorry for giving you a Sunday project.

 

[Ysarex]

Hahaha, no worries @Ysarex, I'm already glad you guys here are helping me out!

About the Windows version, I am now running on W10 but had the similar thing going on running on W8.1 as well. Can't honestly remember if it already started with Windows 7.
When I'm checking the ICC profiles I can see 2. One from Spyder *(Spyder3Express.icm) and one from Dell (U2713H.icm).
The difference in color is bigger with colorful photos (makes sense).
I will try some other photoviewers, including Picasa and will also give Firefox a try.

But basically... if this issue is system wide and other people are using the default viewing apps and Internet Explorer or Chrome... that means they will always see the photos differently?

This has always been the case and remains an uncontrollable problem. You can't control how or on what kind of device people on the other end of the web will view your photo. DEAR LORD! they may use their phone! All you can do is calibrate to industry standards and control your end.

In Photoshop, when exporting to Web, there is an option to include the document profile. I've tried that option once and for the default photoviewer (either the viewer app from W8/W10 or the desktop application) it didn't make any difference. Did not try it when putting photos online on different sites.

Always make sure your output JPEG is tagged with the appropriate ICC profile. Otherwise the colors in the photo are undefined. The ICC profile should never be thought of as optional. Instead you should think that removing it destroys the photo. Again the problem is what happens out there?

It's a common misconception that the Internet is sRGB by default and that if you remove or leave off the ICC profile then you'll default to sRGB. What you default to is undefined.

Can it also vary per site how they display a photo? For example, a clean headshot can look good on FB but when shows on LinkedIn, the colors become reddish and people tend to look like tomatoes.

What varies from site to site is whether or not they mangle your file. The most common issue is re-sizing. Some host sites will have a size limit. If you upload too large a photo they'll re-size on import and then when they re-write the file they may strip off the ICC profile. Less common now than a few years ago. The bigger problem is usually with how the site is viewed -- is the browser correctly color-managed: WEB BROWSER COLOR MANAGEMENT Tutorial - Test Page FireFox Safari Chrome Internet Explorer IE 10- FILES have embedded ICC profiles Photoshop ColorManagement

And finally, sorry for giving you a Sunday project.

It's 2:50 and I'm still at it (break for brunch and water the garden). WTF!! I encountered similar in the past but hadn't checked lately and didn't check with the WIN 10 upgrade. Right now I'm done with my laptop. Got to go out now and this evening or tomorrow I'll check the desktop. So far I got this:

[] If I remove monitor calibration then all apps display the same. That goes for all Windows apps and all photo programs and browsers.
[] My calibration tool is an X-Rite Colormunki Photo. If I calibrate the monitor I get basically a two way split between all Windows apps and all other apps. Definitely Windows system wide as I set the desktop background image to my test photo. On the desktop it displays the same as it does in all Windows apps (Photos, MS Edge, etc.). All my Photo processing programs (Photoshop, DX0, Capture One, SilkyPix, LightZone) AND FIREFOX display the photo differently, but they all agree with each other.
[] I have tried everything I can think of in the Windows color management control panel to no avail.
[] Alex's version 2 versus version 4 suggestion was important. That certainly was a past problem that we suffered through. My X-Rite calibrator has the ability to save either version 2 or version 4 profiles. SO I MADE BOTH! And ran all the tests with both version. Basically it looks like Windows 10 is now behaving with version 4 profiles as I got the same result. But the difference remains. Later I'll post some examples of how serious (or not) the difference is.
[] Windows is clearly using the monitor profile. The change from un-profiled to profiled is huge and this problem is slight. But Windows is putting a spin on it or using it differently and it doesn't seem to be the apps. It's system level. What's interesting is that all of my photo processing apps are all using the profile differently and they all agree with each other.

Going shopping with the wife now. Later.

Joe