Color management issue, driving me insane

[focasa]

Wow!! Seems more complicated than I thought. Tried a few different browsers. FireFox & Chrome are displaying the photo like I see it in Photoshop. IE en Edge (that new W10 thing) are displaying it with the colors off. (or using the different profile).

I havent tried different photoviewers yet but here's something strange I found out.
I know that Dell monitor I have is capable of displaying a great part of the AdobeRGB color range. If I save a photo from Photoshop after converting the profile to aRGB, the windows viewer app is much more accurate to what Photoshop is displaying. Not spot on but the differences are acceptable. But when saving it as a sRGB file, that's where the misery is starting. Which is mindboggling because if it can display a great part of the aRGB range, it has to be capable of displaying the 100% part of sRGB. Sigh....

Now go spent some time with your wife now. I will be back here tomorrow after work.

 

[Alexr25]

This is the result of Microsoft's half baked approach to color management.
IE is a semi color managed application and while I've had no experience with Edge, I suspect it works the same way.
IE can read embedded color profiles in images but then all it does is use that data to convert the image to the system default sRGB color space. It make no use of the monitor profile that you create when you calibrate your monitor.
Fully color managed applications such as Chrome and Firefox use the embedded color profiles in images to convert the image into the color space of the monitor as defined by the ICC file that was created when you profiled your monitor.

 

[focasa]

@Alexr25: I also believe Edge works in the same way. It Microsofts new Internet browser and its an extract from what Internet Explorer once was. (although its still available in W10)

 

[Ysarex]

I checked my desktop and did some reading. My desktop is the same as my laptop.

Alex basically has it right: "This is the result of Microsoft's half baked approach to color management. IE is a semi color managed application and while I've had no experience with Edge, I suspect it works the same way. IE can read embedded color profiles in images but then all it does is use that data to convert the image to the system default sRGB color space. It make no use of the monitor profile that you create when you calibrate your monitor."

It's not just IE -- it's all Microsuck Apps that display photos.

Here's two links for reading: Windows 10 Color management

and the one I posted yesterday: WEB BROWSER COLOR MANAGEMENT Tutorial - Test Page FireFox Safari Chrome Internet Explorer IE 10- FILES have embedded ICC profiles Photoshop ColorManagement

[] The good: At the system level Windows reads and applies your monitor calibration profile correctly. That means you can use Windows and calibrate your display and expect proper color managed results from Apps that work properly. Just don't use any Microsuck Apps.

[] The bad #1: Windows Apps that display photos suck and if you use them (any of them) they will display color wrong. If you're using Windows now and you have a calibrated monitor and you're looking at your images in MS Photos or on this forum or anywhere on the Internet and you're using IE or MS Edge then you're seeing the color in your images incorrectly. If you have a wide gamut monitor it's worse.

[] The bad #2: There's no fix for the bad #1. If you're using Microsuck Apps they're wrong and you can't make them right.

[] The bad #3: Most people out there looking at photos on the Internet use Microsuck Apps.

How bad is it? I created a solid color file and saved it as an sRGB tagged JPEG:

Joe

 

[AceCo55]

Ysarex .... thankyou for taking the time to post this information.
It may not be what we want to hear ... but I think you save a lot of people from wasting time trying to solve an unsolvable (at this time) problem

 

[Ysarex]

Ysarex .... thankyou for taking the time to post this information.
It may not be what we want to hear ... but I think you save a lot of people from wasting time trying to solve an unsolvable (at this time) problem

Thanks, I was unaware of this which I find a little embarrassing. It's been at least a decade since I stopped allowing IE to run on my systems. When I upgraded to Win 8 I noted the Photos app, tried to kill it, and then just ignored it. I'd been reading that color management in Windows had gotten better and that IE was reading file profiles so I assumed things were working properly; I was having no problems. If you use apps that do color management right then Windows is fine and your display calibration profile will be applied correctly. So it really is a Windows apps problem -- use alternatives that work.

The real down side of this is that so many people out there on the Web, even if they do calibrate their monitors, are seeing false color because they just take the easy route with faith in Microsuck and they use the Win apps that are there. The "free" roll out of Win 10 maintains this problem. Ironically the problem doesn't exist if you don't calibrate your display. Then all images have the same false colors in all apps together -- must be working. Might as well just view your photos on your phone and give up.

Joe

 

[Braineack]

too bad the image looks much better displayed on the Microsuck Photos side than the PS side...

 

[focasa]

@Ysarex
Thank you so much for all the time investigated in this issue, I really appreciate it.
It's still frustrating but its good to know that Im using a correct workflow. My monitor has a wider gamut so the issue is indeed worse on my screen.

But atleast I can work with this! Guess there wil always be issues like this until every app uses the profiles. Maybe one day....

Thanx again so so much for all the time spent on this!!

 

[Ysarex]

@Ysarex
Thank you so much for all the time investigated in this issue, I really appreciate it.
It's still frustrating but its good to know that Im using a correct workflow. My monitor has a wider gamut so the issue is indeed worse on my screen.

But atleast I can work with this! Guess there wil always be issues like this until every app uses the profiles. Maybe one day....

Thanx again so so much for all the time spent on this!!

It was a learning experience for me and a valuable one I thought the situation had improved beyond this. It's disappointing. We can get control and do it right but to what end when we have to turn our work out on to the Web and have it mangled. A pox on Microsoft.

Joe

 

[focasa]

@Ysarex
Maybe a stupid extra question.

I need to re-calibrate my monitor again. The Spyder software tells me to set my screen to 6500K or an equivalent.
I can do that in the settings, set it to 6500K. But I also have some color profiles modes. I can set to to aRGB or to sRGB.

I am working saving in sRGB, the monitors are working with sRGB, the embedded profile is sRGB. Then why set it to 6500K for calibration in stead of sRGB?
The difference are mostly in the reds (on my screen). 6500K is giving more saturated red's in the imaged then sRGB mode does.

 

[Ysarex]

@Ysarex
Maybe a stupid extra question.

I need to re-calibrate my monitor again. The Spyder software tells me to set my screen to 6500K or an equivalent.
I can do that in the settings, set it to 6500K. But I also have some color profiles modes. I can set to to aRGB or to sRGB.

I am working saving in sRGB, the monitors are working with sRGB, the embedded profile is sRGB. Then why set it to 6500K for calibration in stead of sRGB?
The difference are mostly in the reds (on my screen). 6500K is giving more saturated red's in the imaged then sRGB mode does.

The appropriate white point for sRGB is 6500K. Not sure what that monitor manufacturer means by the sRGB/aRGB settings and specifically what those settings actually do. In other words would setting the monitor to sRGB limit it's color gamut? If it does why for heaven's sake do that? If it doesn't then what's it doing? I'd either ignore them or find out from the manufacturer what those settings actually do. Then I'd probably set the white point to 6500K and calibrate the monitor.

Joe

 

[focasa]

@Ysarex
Took a quick shot with my phone:

Will try to figure out what Dell means with them. There is a pretty big difference though in the output if I set it to sRGB or 6500K.
The more you look into the wicked world of colors, the more crazy it gets. ;-) The specs of my screen tell me it's capable of displaying 99% of aRGB and 100% of sRGB. So from a logic point of view I'd say that sRGB is the best choice when working with images for the web. You might eliminate the aRGB range but the internet lives on sRGB.
But then again, if 6500K is the appropriate white point for sRGB then this would be the better choice.

 

[KmH]

If you want to know about color.
Color Science: Concepts and Methods, Quantitative Data and Formulae

 

[Ysarex]

@Ysarex
Took a quick shot with my phone:

Will try to figure out what Dell means with them. There is a pretty big difference though in the output if I set it to sRGB or 6500K.
The more you look into the wicked world of colors, the more crazy it gets. ;-) The specs of my screen tell me it's capable of displaying 99% of aRGB and 100% of sRGB. So from a logic point of view I'd say that sRGB is the best choice when working with images for the web. You might eliminate the aRGB range but the internet lives on sRGB.
But then again, if 6500K is the appropriate white point for sRGB then this would be the better choice.

6500K is also the appropriate white point for aRGB.

My best guess is that Dell is doing two things: 1. There's a real physical switch there in the display that reduces the color gamut of the monitor in the "color space" modes. They're throttling the monitor with a factory preset to deliver a color gamut that's supposedly color space matched. If I'm right this is the wrong way to handle a hardware device. Devices don't have device independent color spaces like sRGB or aRGB. That's why we call those color spaces device independent. Hardware devices have color gamuts. And that's the 2nd thing Dell is doing: Confusing and misusing the terminology to keep the consumer market confused and ignorant (the keep it stupid simple marketing rule). The advantage of a preset that alters the monitor's color gamut would be better off-the-shelf performance in a non-calibrated and non-profiled work environment (read consumer use). I'll bet each time that switch is thrown the installed monitor profile in the OS doesn't change.

The proper way to color manage a hardware device is to calibrate and profile the device with a colorimeter or spectrophotometer.

The idea that the Internet is sRGB is a common myth. The Internet is not sRGB. The Internet does not have a color space. It is fair to say that if you're going to strip off or ignore the ICC profile for an image and display that image using non-color manged hardware and software that your best bet for seeing the least amount of change is to start with an sRGB image. That's a whole lot different than saying the Internet is sRGB -- the Internet is undefined.

Link that might help: How to Properly Calibrate Dell U2413 / U2713H / U3014 Monitors

Joe

 

[focasa]

@KmH
Thanx for the link. The thing is that I DO want to know about colour, but the more I read and hear about it, the more mind boggling it is for me.

@Ysarex
Are there also things you DONT know? ;-)
Thanx again for the info. Its really extremely useful!