Commercial work for resort....pricing and contract

[whitnic]

Also quite uncomfortable with the fact that he intends to 1099 me when to my knowledge I only have to report wages on a 1099 should I make more than 600 in a calendar year. Given that he is caping me at 300 and I don't anticipate I will do any other related work during the year I find it slightly concerning considering a 1099 means I will be taxed VERY heavily on that minuscule amount of money. I am familiar with self employment tax rates and laws of reporting income because as a concierge I do make commissions from various companies who do provide me with a 1099.

 

[tirediron]

This is a bad situation, getting worse. DO NOT take this on!

 

[nycphotography]

The best way to handle such things is to take yourself out of the valuation process.

"Generally speaking the going rate for this kind of work is between $x and $y. But I'd suggest you do your own research and see what you come up with.

I'll do it for $x on my own time since I already work for you full time. But if it's a conflict of interest to hire me, then by all means don't hire me for this. Use someone else, and pay them $y.

I really appreciate you thinking of me for this, but really, if I'm going to produce the results this is a non trivial undertaking and I'd really have to charge an appropriate amount to take on the responsibility.

Let me know what you decide."

I learned a lesson by accident a long time ago... if you don't need them and dismiss them (or are prepared to dismiss them) and they come back to you or pursue you, then you control the relationship. If you need them, and show it, then they will control the relationship.

 

[tirediron]

The best way to handle such things is to take yourself out of the valuation process.

"Generally speaking the going rate for this kind of work is between $x and $y. But I'd suggest you do your own research and see what you come up with.

I'll do it for $x on my own time since I already work for you full time. But if it's a conflict of interest to hire me, then by all means don't hire me for this. Use someone else, and pay them $y.

I really appreciate you thinking of me for this, but really, if I'm going to produce the results this is a non trivial undertaking and I'd really have to charge an appropriate amount to take on the responsibility.

Let me know what you decide."

I learned a lesson by accident a long time ago... if you don't need them and dismiss them (or are prepared to dismiss them) and they come back to you or pursue you, then you control the relationship. If you need them, and show it, then they will control the relationship.

Best advice in the entire thread!

 

[Steve5D]

Oh yeah and the manager actually said that it was a conflict of interest to hire somebody who is currently employed by the hotel and therefore the only way we can do the deal is if I worked for and i quote peanuts

I'd decline, period, and I wouldn't be remarkably polite about it at this point. If it' a conflict of interest, then the conflict exists regardless of the dollar amount. As lead concierge, I don't believe that providing images falls into your job description, and they are probably well aware that not only can they not coerce you to do it, they also know that they would likely be opening themselves up for a lawsuit if they did.

They've basically confirmed that they're not going to pay you more. Ergo, I wouldn't do it. Period.

Is this the Hilton over on Mission Bay or downtown?

 

[manaheim]

He actually works at the resort that's trying to get him to do this. A polite extraction is likely going to be the only option unless he wants to be looking for work.

 

[Aloicious]

don't do it man. if there is a conflict of interest, then there is a conflict of interest, period. it doesn't matter if they are offering you $3000 or $300, a low amount of money doesn't 'resolve' the conflict of interest...in fact it makes it worse as they are not offering you a fair market price when the work being done is outside your job description.

Personally I'd just politely refuse, say thanks, that you understand their position but the amount they are offering is not within the fair market value of your work. Thank them for their time and interest. Don't even put in a counter offer, because that will just make things worse if they think your counter offer is too high (which they will based off what they are offering). And for the love of all things good in this world, don't tell them that you're working on making your photography a career, this is your current employer, nothing good can come from telling them your future plans to make money outside their timeclock. Be professional and polite and succinct, but don't apologize for not taking the job either, you're not at fault for them having to look elsewhere for the service, they're the ones who are at fault for losing the job for not offering you a fair price. You could even find the most ridiculously expensive commercial photographer you can, and without saying anything, just toss a casual reference to them so that if they go to them for a quote, they'll get an incredibly expensive price, and that may have them re-think their position (probably not, but hey why not)

If they come back and reply to that and say they are still interested and WANT a counter offer, then give them a straightforward price like tiredon gave, and if needed, explain your costs and man hours involved (i.e. equipment costs, travel costs, prep time, shooting time, production time, and if you're off the clock during any of it, than this is YOUR time, not theirs. they can't have it for free) and where your numbers come from and if needed perhaps provide some examples from credible sources like have been linked to in this thread already, they are business people, not photographers, they'll understand and appreciate numbers and cold hard facts.

but personally, I'd just walk away....You should Nancy Regan this whole situation and just say no.

 

[The_Traveler]

Agree totally with those who say to decline.

Once they brought up conflict of interest the entire deal is tainted.
Whatever you charge - and get - they have a lever against you.

I would specifically disclaim the money issues as the cause of your withdrawal so that isn't a way for them to come back to you and make it look like you were trying to get more money.

I would say that you thank them for the confidence and that you hadn't considered the conflict of interest issues before.
Now that it was made clear about the potential conflict of interest, the issues of money are moot and you don't see any way that you could do this job.

 

[Vautrin]

Do you like photography more than working at the front desk?

If yes, tell them you will work for your normal hourly wage (as they're trying to pay you less than your hourly wage). And that includes everything: post processing at home afterwards, everything. Agree that you won't come in just for a half hour shoot (unless you live close, and don't mind)

If they agree, you've just made your job more pleasant. You'll now be doing something you'd prefer doing -- at least for a little bit.

If they disagree, then really they're just out to take advantage, and you should tell them to take a hike.

 

[whitnic]

Thank you everyone for your replies. I did take everyone's opinions into consideration and made a decision to counter, but I did it in a way that showed them I cannot be pushed around. I consulted with a local photographer who provided me with help creating a professional contract to send back to them. I also wrote an email regarding the whole issue. I decided that since I don't know how much longer I will be with this company anyways, that I should stay true to myself and demand respect from my manangers, and I think I was successful. I realized that backing down polietly may have been the better choice, but I wanted to show them that I am competent enough as a photographer, adult, and business professional, to produce a contract and handle myself, because this mananger clearly does not know me very well and thought otherwise. I am 26 but look about 18, not to mention very few manangers on property even know I have a college degree, given that they weren't in management here when I started. It was important to me to show them what I am made of, so I did. Just in case any of you who helped me would like to read the email I sent, I have included everything below.

Good Morning *Name Removed*
,
After further consideration of your proposal and the contract you provided, I would like to provide you with my counter offer.
When we first began discussing this business opportunity, I was imagining a less formal agreement; in fact, I was happy to do so. I also did not expect to be 1099'd, given that I was under the impression it was unecessary unless I were to make over $600.00 in a calendar year. I realize now that royalty payments fall under different circumstances and due to the formal contract,, a 1099 form will be required.

Given the current situation and per our last meeting, I am now in complete agreement with you that a contract is necessary. I have had the opportunity to review your proposal and respectfully provide you with my counter. Your proposed budget is far lower than market value for freelance photography, and as I mentioned during our meeting, I am not comfortable accepting such an offer due to how it effects the industry standards.

I have drafted a contract for you to review. I believe it is more than reasonable, and still very low given the current median industry rate. I have included a copy of the above stated contract, as well as the photography release form I will provide for you once the terms of the contract have been fulfilled.

I take full responsibility for misrepresenting myself as a Photographer, as I was clearly approaching a company as though they were another friend or family member. This, as you said, is a "conflict of interest." I hope that we can come to an agreement. I would love to be part of this project and I think each party will benefit from the arrangement. I would be happy to provide image samples from previous clients upon your request. I look forward to hearing back from you and await your response.

Sincerely,

W

 

[Steve5D]

Yeah, I don't know that I'd have done that.

The phrase "conflict of interest" is a strong one; strong enough, in fact, that it should've precluded this going any further. By countering, you've illustrated to them, and to anyone who will ever read that, that you're willing to put a few bucks ahead of ethics. Ask yourself if that's the reputation you want, because it's quite easily a reputation you could end up with.

You easily could've shown them that you couldn't be "pushed around" by declining to do the photography for them...

 

[lmoser]

Boy, I'm glad I don't have to make this decision. If you decline, is your boss going to think any less of you? Is there a chance you might lose your job over this? If so, maybe you should suck it up and do it. Just chalk this up as a learning experience. You can get them next time.

 

[manaheim]

That was a harsh step to take with an employer I think. The Spirit of it is fine but the language is strong.

 

[cgipson1]

Your proposed budget is far lower than market value for freelance photography,

This varies greatly depending on skill, and the market. If you charge more then you are worth (i.e your images are of lesser quality then they should be), you will probably be looking for a new job! Especially since your "counter" was somewhat confrontational. Since it has gotten to this point, and based on what the initial offer was... they are probably not going to be happy with anything you produce!

 

[whitnic]

Sometimes being harsh is necessary. I actually consulted with someone who knows this sales manager quite well before my response. He actually is respecting me now and treating this situation more professionally. Clearly standards are different depending on ability and I strongly believe I priced my work accordingly. The contract I presented also gave him the option not to purchase at all if he wasn't satisfied but insisted if he liked my work that he pay a certain amount. I am not worried about my position, as I am a top performer and very well liked by my immediate management team. I have no disciplinary problems in my file and have been employed with my company for 2.5 years. Not to mention I'm pregnant. I do believe the language was strong but that was the point. Tip toeing around because they are my employer wouldn't have been appropriate in my opinion. Anyhow it was actually received VERY well and the deal is not off the table, he actually brought my contract up with other managers in a positive manner and suggested they still use me.