Critiques

[Hertz van Rental]

I'll have a think about it and if I can come up with some workable ideas I'll let you kick them around.

 

[Nikon Fan]

I think that Will used to have critique sessions during a specific chat time, but I think that went down the tubes. I like Big Mike's idea of critique circles...wonder if there is anyway to get this started. Guess we could start a post and then anyone that wants to join could. Then those people are divided into groups, and email each other with critiques, and each member must respond with meaningful thoughts and comments. So it would be more for those that are serious...those that don't contribute get dropped from the circle, and new people can always be added...that's all I can think of at the moment



On a sidenote, Hertz I have noticed that you take the time when you can tell people really want a critique and I really appreciate it Your posts always make me think and reconsider things. So I'll definitely keep a PM critique in mind..

 

[tr0gd0o0r]

I also think that some people are intimidated (like me) because they feel very amateurish compared to many of the "giants" here. Its hard to critique someone that has their own photography business, etc etc, when you've only been "doing" this for 6 months and consider yourself a novice. That may be why people just ooh and ahh over some photos.

I think the views of people like you can often be some of the most valuable information the very people you are intimidated by can get. If a whole bunch of "pro" photogs are discussing an image, there are years and years of experience, learning rules, technique and things like that going into the critique. Input from a novice can be more genuine and tell the photog what is really being portrayed by the image, without as much concern for all the small technical details.

 

[danalec99]

I agree that the critique section could use a kick in the pants.

Could'nt agree more!
It is really dishearteing to see the Critique section shrinking to a "Pat" section. People should honestly disect the images rather than thinking "What if it hurts them"? Hurts?? Folks should first read the Critique FAQ -

They weren't nice to my photo
-Use the criticism and grow. That is what this forum is all about

None of us are infants. We all should learn to take criticisms. Those of us who really want to advance will take the comments constructively. Others will eventually clear off from the Crit section.

When you can tell someone has put a lot of effort into an image and they're not prefacing it with any disclaimer ("How could I have done this or that better?") it almost seems boorish to say anything negative...whatever your thoughts might be.

I can understand what you are highlighting here but I must beg to differ due to the end result your silence would breed!
Do you want to be in the good books or do you want to be part of the photographer's (be it a beginner or a veteran) growth? This is not to just terri. This is to all photographers who withhold their comments due to this fear that they might hurt the posters.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

I generally refrain from commenting in the Crit section not because I am afraid of hurting people's feelings (though I hope I am capable of phrasing my crit in a way that wouldn't hurt feelings) but for the following two reasons:
95% of the photos require exactly the same crit. This would get boring very quickly. The basics of the standard crit would read:
Why did you take this picture? What was it about the view/object/person/scene/situation that caught your eye and made you want to photograph it/them? The overwhelming impression that I get is that you have not thought about what what you are doing or why. You seem to have taken the picture simply because you have seen others just like it and you believe it is the sort of picture you should take when you practice Photography. A photograph - when not being done for commercial purposes and if it is to have any real meaning - should be a personal response to a situation/subject that gives the viewer at least some idea of what it was you felt about the scene or saw in the object. When taking a picture you therefore need to think a little about what you want the viewer to experience so that you can use PoV, lighting, composition and all the other tools of the trade as a means of conveying this. Go and reshoot it with this in mind and then come back so that we can discuss ways of you improving your communication skills.

The second reason is that I know from experience that when I give some serious advice about improvement the student is either incapable or unwilling to accept that I know what I am talking about. They honestly believe that talking about anything other than getting the right exposure or straightening the verticals is a load of b*llocks and just so much hot air. But then they wonder how it is that some people seem to be able to take brilliant pictures that hold their attention whilst theirs are, even in their estimation, just not very good.

At the risk of going on at length (if anyone complains I'll just edit it out ;-) ), a little anecdote. This was the very first crit I received when I was at College and it still stands in my mind as the best and most effective print crit anyone could give a novice - it sure taught me a lot and made me think long and hard.
The first day of the Photography course we were all given a film and sent out to take pictures, the aim being to learn about processing and printing b&w. The brief was to find some shots that we thought were interesting and practice our embryonic skills. Just because it was a technical exercise we were still told to try and take the best picture we could. There would be individual crits at the end of the week.
Naturally we all went out with the intention of taking the best picture in the world so that we could impress the tutors and our fellow students with our abilities.
The College was at Bournemouth - a rather beautiful seaside resort on the South coast of England - and a ten minute walk from the cliffs and beach. An amazing place for photo opportunities especially in the glorious late Summer sunshine.
We did the business and went through the darkroom and I produced what, to my mind, was the best picture I had ever taken. Perfectly exposed and printed, it was a picture of two deck-chairs on the beach, the wind blowing the canvas seats and the sun making interesting shadows.
I went into my crit at the end of the week feeling bouyant and supremely confident.
My two tutors, Tony and Paul, looked impassively for about ten seconds at the print I put on the table, then Tony looked bored and started cleaning his nails. Paul started rolling a cigarette. After a minute or two's silence, Tony glanced up and saw I was still there. "Show him", he said to Paul. Paul, without looking, opened a drawer and, pulling out a huge wad of prints, dumped them on the table and went back to cigarette rolling. Every single print was an almost identical picture to mine - and there were about a hundred. "Never mind, mate," said Tony. "Everyone does that the first time. Send the next one in."
I left the room with my ego totally crushed. But then I started to think. The pictures represented years of students taking the same picture, going through the same crit proceedure that I had, and suffering the same fate. And they had probably felt exactly the same as me at every stage - and I knew, too, that I wouldn't be the last.
That weekend I thought long and hard about me, my pictures and Photography having learned one of the most valuable lessons of my life.
On the Monday Paul came up behind me and slapped me on the back. "Now the only way is up, mate. Start taking your own pictures - not someone else's."
I've borne that in mind ever since.

 

[KevinR]

Yeah, but was it one of the best examples of that shot?

That is what everybody who starts to take photography seriously needs.

Find your own voice (vision).

 

[Andrea K]

i havent read all the posts in this thread, no time right now, but the main reason that i dont post harsh critiques is basically because i know that i dont know what im talking about...personally my own pictures arent good so if i said something negative about someone else's picture i would have nothing of my own to back it up and will end up looking like a cocky, ignorant a**. i try to get some honest critique from people but most times its simply just "nice!" or "cool!" or nothing at all. so when i first started posting pictures here i would get those responses and wouldnt see any other type of critique so naturally when i started commenting on peoples' posts i said the same thing.

edit: i have read a few more posts and was thinking about my own habits and on another site that i visit, i only post what i think are my best pictures and more often than not i wont get any replies and i find that they offer more honest and harsh critique when they do reply. its funny how i often post comments on peoples' pictures here (although not so much in the past few weeks) but on the forum where people offer real critique i have yet to comment on someone's pic. probably because i know that i know nothing and i dont want to be criticized for saying something irrelevant or the like.

 

[danalec99]

Start taking your own pictures - not someone else's."

:thumbsup:

 

[pursuer]

This thread has really made me think about the way I comment on the photographs posted here. Like many others I feel I am still pretty far down the learning curve and don't really have any business critiquing others work and for this reason I generaly avoid the critique section. Peoples feelings definatly play a large role in the comments I do make, in the future I will try to spout less mindless compliments and try to offer more honest comments.

I also want to thank Hertz van Rental for taking the time to write up the the above post. It in particular has giving me a lot to think about.

Even if the the comments on this forum are not always that constructive it is still a great community, this discussion can only make it an even better one

 

[JonMikal]

great thread! it's difficult to know exactly where to post a comment when you're trying to target all members, eh? however, a lot has been said about our critique forum and now it's time to step up and take action!

 

[Meysha]

a lot has been said about our critique forum and now it's time to step up and take action!

I think Ive already seen a bit of a change - especially wrt to comments by people who've already commented in this thread.

i dont post harsh critiques is basically because i know that i dont know what im talking about...

I know what you mean here. Neither do I. I've got hardly any photography education but I still know when I like a photo or not. I may not know what makes a photo good or great but I always find myself asking questions about the photos I see here. And I reckon that if I'm asking myself these questions then someone else must be too. So I like to pass on these 'layperson' thoughts I have.

I doubt it will ever happen but if anyone laughs at me coz of what I say with my non existant knowledge I'll sign em up to so many viagra/porn mailing lists they'll be sorry. ;-) *jks*

 

[ShutteredEye]

Chase & Hertz:

What if we developed an online form for critiques? One for the photographer, and one for the critiquer?

Photographer:
EXIF data, location, story behind the shot, what trying to accomplish, aspects most concerned about (lighting, focus etc.),

Critiquer:
Maybe some voting scales for lighting, focus, DOF, composition etc. Then a section for comments. Then the form answers could be compiled into a global "rating" etc and the comments could be compiled into a list etc.

Then outside these two sections we could have the standard thread. This way people that are shy about critiquing could do so fairly anonymously with the critique form, but we would still have the section to post in as well.

Just a thought.

 

[Nikon Fan]

Chase & Hertz:

What if we developed an online form for critiques? One for the photographer, and one for the critiquer?

Photographer:
EXIF data, location, story behind the shot, what trying to accomplish, aspects most concerned about (lighting, focus etc.),

Critiquer:
Maybe some voting scales for lighting, focus, DOF, composition etc. Then a section for comments. Then the form answers could be compiled into a global "rating" etc and the comments could be compiled into a list etc.

Then outside these two sections we could have the standard thread. This way people that are shy about critiquing could do so fairly anonymously with the critique form, but we would still have the section to post in as well.

Just a thought.

Oooh I like that idea Not sure how feasible it is, but a good idea. Maybe part of the critique forum should be is that when we post a pic, we must put the purpose, data, and all the things you mentioned in it. Then those that do critique can just rate the things you mentioned, and that way it would all be done in the same thread...

I think it would definitely help people think before they post in the critique section, and it would also give those that write critiques something more to go by, essentially eliminating the "wows".... Great idea Mountainlander

 

[Meysha]

It'd probably be a good thing if the 'points' or stars or whatever weren't public. Otherwise i reckon it'd start to get a bit competitive like some other sites.

Good idea Robert!