Dark Subject on White Background

[Mystery]

With regards only to white background photography, how much post work is usually done with the background?

ZERO

I ask this because I am noticing that the photos on glass are lacking a shadow and I feel the images I am taking really need a shadow. I do still have my sheet of white lexan, and I can achieve nice shadows shooting on it.

I want to be realistic here, though. So, any advice on this subject?

Why don't you take your background. raise it up a bit, move it closer and let it curve onto the top you have there so it can be your background AND you base. Same exact white color then.

Really, zero? So you're telling me that I should be able to get 255 white on my background every time and not have to do a single thing to it in post?

I have a home made, 4'x4' still life table with built in lights underneath it. With the lights on, it's too much light and blows out the product. With the lights off, though, it looks decent, but the only way (EDIT: the only way I know how with my limited experience) to get the background white without blowing out the subject is to do it in post. I have never tried shooting on paper, but I suppose I could try it really easily if you think it would help.

 

[astroNikon]

with white paper or board, cloth, etc and if it's one continuous sheet.
When the flashes flash the light will bounce off that sheet and light the lower part (with properly placed lights). You don't need to light from below.

research it on the internet ... it's the normal way of doing it from what I've seen. It looks like you are making it way more complicated than it has to be thus you are having a bunch of problems.

but it basically states ^^ everything everyone else has said too ...

here's a simplistic explanation but they're all basically the same setup --> Product Photography Tutorial: How to Shoot Great Photos on the Cheap

 

[CameraClicker]

Some speedlites, umbrellas, a grid, some white card stock, and a sheet of white Plexiglass. SOOC.

This is the setup, the grid is on the background, not on the strap (sorry, don't have black rope), full power. The umbrellas are on everything, 1/4 power, each, at about the same distance. The sheets aren't big enough and without the second one, you can see the wires in the table, so I used two sheets, overlapped under the Plexiglass.

This is what it looks like when it opens in Adobe Camera Raw, the big red blob is 255, 255, 255, mostly from the speedlite with the grid

This is the whole frame

And this is the final crop

I think there's some dirt that didn't wash off the Plexiglass. Cleanliness may be next to Godliness, but around here it's next to impossible! A little work with the healing brush would finish it off.

 

[Austin Greene]

With regards only to white background photography, how much post work is usually done with the background?

ZERO

Sorry, I simply disagree. Sure, you can get close to 255 in the studio, but doing so uniformly while properly lighting your objects is near-impossible. Working in a product studio daily I can say that every single one of our photos undergoes complete background subtraction, is placed onto a white (255) background, and often we even add our own shadows in post as well. This is a requirement for us when your shooting thousands of items that all need to have identical styling in the eyes of the consumer. It's not how I'd do my own work, but amongst the biggest product shooters out there it is considered a standard.

 

[Tinderbox (UK)]

Just out of curiosity have you tried HDR combine more than one exposure to get more contrast.

John.

 

[Mystery]

with white paper or board, cloth, etc and if it's one continuous sheet.
When the flashes flash the light will bounce off that sheet and light the lower part (with properly placed lights). You don't need to light from below.

research it on the internet ... it's the normal way of doing it from what I've seen. It looks like you are making it way more complicated than it has to be thus you are having a bunch of problems.

but it basically states ^^ everything everyone else has said too ...

here's a simplistic explanation but they're all basically the same setup --> Product Photography Tutorial: How to Shoot Great Photos on the Cheap

I was lighting from below. I am no longer doing that, because I don't like having a shadow-less image any more.

Thanks for posting the link, but I feel the advice from the author is rather basic. I'll go so far to say that they have actually given out a bit of bad advice to set the camera to the lowest possible ISO. Then, they recommend outsourcing the job of making a clipping path. I have spent thousands of dollars on photographic equipment and photo editing software. My goal is to be able to do it myself, not outsource it. I'm not just trying to save a buck by not hiring a professional. I am actually passionate about photography and want to learn the proper and professional ways to do this. I'm not attacking you, I know you were just trying to show the example of the lighting setup. It just wasn't all that good.

While your post wasn't all that helpful in regards to content. You actually provided me with the best advice from all the replies so far. You said I'm making it too complicated and reverted me back to all the education I have, which is KISS (keep it simple, stupid!) For that, I give a big THANKS! The simple lighting setup you shared showed me that i truly was over thinking this.

I rethought what I was doing and got a much better shot as my first test shot without even trying to tweak anything. Here is a shot I took without even trying, followed by a shot of the setup. Setup is one light with a shoot through umbrella boomed over the top of the subject. Second light is camera left with a bounce umbrella. Third light is another speedlight in a bounce umbrella, far camera right and behind. I am going to test this shot with a flag to bounce on the right instead of a third light, I just haven't gotten any further than doing this test shot. Also, I am not even using a sweep. I just set my 4'x8' piece of white polycarbonate on the dining room table, flat. If the product were taller, a sweep would be very useful. What do y'all think about switching to using a proper still life table, like a Manfrotto table, that will hold my plexiglass with a sweep?

Some speedlites, umbrellas, a grid, some white card stock, and a sheet of white Plexiglass. SOOC.

This is the setup, the grid is on the background, not on the strap (sorry, don't have black rope), full power. The umbrellas are on everything, 1/4 power, each, at about the same distance. The sheets aren't big enough and without the second one, you can see the wires in the table, so I used two sheets, overlapped under the Plexiglass.
View attachment 85184

This is what it looks like when it opens in Adobe Camera Raw, the big red blob is 255, 255, 255, mostly from the speedlite with the grid
View attachment 85185

This is the whole frame
View attachment 85186

And this is the final crop
View attachment 85187

I think there's some dirt that didn't wash off the Plexiglass. Cleanliness may be next to Godliness, but around here it's next to impossible! A little work with the healing brush would finish it off.

Thanks for throwing together that example. I have adjusted the setup here and got what I think is a better shot.

With regards only to white background photography, how much post work is usually done with the background?

ZERO

Sorry, I simply disagree. Sure, you can get close to 255 in the studio, but doing so uniformly while properly lighting your objects is near-impossible. Working in a product studio daily I can say that every single one of our photos undergoes complete background subtraction, is placed onto a white (255) background, and often we even add our own shadows in post as well. This is a requirement for us when your shooting thousands of items that all need to have identical styling in the eyes of the consumer. It's not how I'd do my own work, but amongst the biggest product shooters out there it is considered a standard.

Thanks for posting that. I honestly didn't feel it to be very practical to expect to get the perfect shot straight from the camera. However, if you're really shooting thousands of products at a time, isn't there a simpler way to do it? I mean, even you say it's not how you would do it if it were your own job. So, how would you do it?

Just out of curiosity have you tried HDR combine more than one exposure to get more contrast.


John.

I have not tried to do an HDR shot. I did consider a composite of some sort for the shadow, but I think it's overkill. I feel I should be able to achieve the look with the lights, basic home made modifiers and the surfaces I have to shoot on. I have around 200 photos to shoot, so I am trying to keep it simple. If I count the photos I would like to reshoot from when I knew even less about how to do this, I have about 300 more photos to shoot. So, that's why I want it simple.

 

[CameraClicker]

I like your latest shot.

Simple is good. If you can get it done in camera faster than in post, in camera is a good choice. Usually some post processing is done, even if it is just resizing and sharpening. If you have 300 to process, every minute per unit adds 5 hours!

Here is MacDonald's take on the process:

 

[Mystery]

I like your latest shot.

Simple is good. If you can get it done in camera faster than in post, in camera is a good choice. Usually some post processing is done, even if it is just resizing and sharpening. If you have 300 to process, every minute per unit adds 5 hours!

Here is MacDonald's take on the process:

Thanks, I'm liking it a lot more with the shadow. I feel the light is a little too harsh still, so I will be working on it a little more today to try and dial it in better. I didn't get to add the hardware in this shot for you guys, but this rope is actually going to be a product with shiny nickel hardware. I had to leave it off because it is uniquely identifying to the finished product, for which I have a non-disclosure with the client. I wish I could put up the shot of the completed product, because I am actually really happy with how the reflective hardware turned out. I have shot a lot of reflective hardware and jewelry, and I've never had it look this good.

I haven't tried any other colors except the black product, so I'll post back after I've had a chance to get some other colors out. Hoping everything will work without too much adjusting. I guess we'll see. Thanks so far for all the help here. We're not done yet, so I'll be back after I've done some actual finished shots.

I really liked seeing the McDonalds shoot, thanks for sharing it. I am trying to set up the shots with the same attitude. On my first shoot, I did hundreds of shots and spent days editing them. After I was done, I could see that my eyes were tricking me and my colors weren't the same from shot to shot. I need a lot more uniformity, so hopefully getting it out of the camera closer to what I want will solve my problems.

 

[CameraClicker]

Colour problems? How about: X-Rite ColorChecker Passport MSCCPP B&H Photo Video

 

[Mystery]

Yeah, getting colors just right has been really difficult for me. I have some products that the color is really not an accurate representation of. I need to reshoot those shots anyway. I've yet to have a customer complain about the color of the product when they received it, but I won't settle for "good enough".

You know, I was looking at that exact thing about a year ago. Actually, this one with the monitor calibrator.
X-Rite ColorMunki Display with ColorChecker Passport Kit B&H

I had just blown my budget on other stuff and asked a friend if he ever used one. He talked me out of it one way or another and convinced me to buy a light meter first if I didn't have money to buy it all now. He doesn't shoot products though, he does mostly landscapes and portraits, so maybe the advice was uninformed. Have you used that color checker? Is it as good as it claims to be for this kind of work?

 

[Mystery]

Here's an example of the color issue I face. Image #1 is a photo taken by a professional photographer we hired. He did a great job. I would still be using him if his services were cost effective for us. Unfortunately, we are doing a lot of photos of custom work and one-offs. Paying $20-$30 for a photo of a product we will only sell one of is cost prohibitive. This is why I am trying to set up a studio in house that we can shoot in regularly.

Photo #2 is a raw image with the same setup as the black rope. I moved the lights and adjusted power a little bit, but not a whole lot. I also changed the white balance value. Other than that, this is what I'm getting.

Photo #3 is what happens when I adjust exposure in adobe raw to bring the background to white around the product.

Photo #4 is the same image with the white background around the product adjusted with the levels white dropper.

Photo #5 is photo #4 with the saturation kicked up about +25. It looks a lot better, but I find that too much adjusting in post gets me into trouble with the colors matching. For example, I thought this looked pretty good in PS, but now that I look at it a few minutes later, I think it looks ridiculously over-saturated.

I know the product shown originally is a different product. I also didn't take any effort to stage my shot. The point is, the leather on the inside of the dog collar in my shot is the same teal color as the original professional shot. The brown is also the same brown. In every case where I try to adjust the image in post, I end up with a washed out product if I get the background white. With the exception of actually clipping the product off the background, I see no easy way of making this shot look good with minimal post work. So, I found myself coming back in on a photo like this to enhance the color. After a few dozen of them, the teal would end up looking really green or really blue.

So, now that the issue of shooting the black rope on the white background is solved, I have the same old problem of overexposed, washed out colors on white backgrounds. I want to have that rich, vibrant color like in the professional shot. I can do it in post, but I have a problem with the uniformity from one image to another. I know there are tools in PS for this, but I was hoping to get closer straight from the camera. Am I expecting too much? Do I just need more practice with shooting AND editing to nail this?

 

[pyzik]

Some speedlites, umbrellas, a grid, some white card stock, and a sheet of white Plexiglass. SOOC.

This is the setup, the grid is on the background, not on the strap (sorry, don't have black rope), full power. The umbrellas are on everything, 1/4 power, each, at about the same distance. The sheets aren't big enough and without the second one, you can see the wires in the table, so I used two sheets, overlapped under the Plexiglass.

And this is the final crop
View attachment 85187

I think there's some dirt that didn't wash off the Plexiglass. Cleanliness may be next to Godliness, but around here it's next to impossible! A little work with the healing brush would finish it off.

Great shot! I've been wanting to do a shot like this for some pieces and didn't know how to accomplish it.
Thanks for the info.