Experimenting with Flash

[Robin Usagani]

Dao, using a bounce card seems to be VERY popular. Even our respected member Derrel thinks so. I never want to use a bounce card and definitely not stoffen or fong dong. I may use a bounce card if the room is not ideal for bouncing but I avoid it at all cost. Look at this link below. Also look at a few quotes I cut and pasted below.

http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/4-bouncing-flash/

"if you’re using the correct angle. And here I want to stress something again – shooting with an omnibounce at 60 or 45 degrees, should not be a default way of using flash."

"A key factor in both these images, was that there was NO light directly from my flash on my subject. All the light was indirect."

Basically if you add a stoffen or a bounce card, you are ADDING direct light. If you bounce your flash to the ceiling and wall behind you in an angle, that bright spot on the wall and ceiling WILL BE your catch light.

 

[Village Idiot]

Lern2flashBro!

Being able to angle your light isn't the only advantage. Being able to position your lighting and sculpt it to your needs is more like it. And I don't know what mystical camera you're using, but when my flashes are off camera, their setting aren't changing based on what I'm metering and my camera settings are set exactly as I need them, so I'm pretty sure those results are going to be a lot more accurate than having the camera change my flash settings for me.

I am . I am just making a point of bounced on camera flash VS. off camera flash with no modifier. I take bounced on camera flash any day. My comment was really directed to WhiskeyTango. I have seen too many times where people jump too fast. They still dont know how to do bounced flash (which I still think the most important thing to learn), and the next thing you know they are shooting with 2-3 off camera flash producing mediocre result. To be honest, I am still doing 1 of camera flash and sometimes 2 since my main focus is wedding photography. I am just really passionate when it comes to bounced flash. I can talk about it all day.

It's boring and flat with no depth and you can't very well use it outside. You can't set any real type of mood with it.

Moody shots like these aren't possible with one bounced flash:




And you can forget about outside flash phtography. Something like this is impossible with bounced flash:

 

[Robin Usagani]

Will.. of course.. you intentionally did all that.. I understand. You intentionally add racoon eyes. Yes those are cool shots but they are not "good" shot if your intent is to take a well lit subject. I think we are comparing apples and oranges. I am not disagreeing with you... seriously.

 

[Dao]

Dao, using a bounce card seems to be VERY popular. Even our respected member Derrel thinks so. I never want to use a bounce card and definitely not stoffen or fong dong. I may use a bounce card if the room is not ideal for bouncing but I avoid it at all cost. Look at this link below. Also look at a few quotes I cut and pasted below.

http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/4-bouncing-flash/

"if you’re using the correct angle. And here I want to stress something again – shooting with an omnibounce at 60 or 45 degrees, should not be a default way of using flash."

"A key factor in both these images, was that there was NO light directly from my flash on my subject. All the light was indirect."

Basically if you add a stoffen or a bounce card, you are ADDING direct light. If you bounce your flash to the ceiling and wall behind you in an angle, that bright spot on the wall and ceiling WILL BE your catch light.

Bounce card, I mean a size about half of a business card (or even smaller) that exposed to the flash to add some forwarding light. I do not mean using a stoffen. That is too big for my taste. It depends on the situation. If there is a wall behind me, I usually do not need any forwarding light from the flash at all. If there is a wall right behind the subject, I usually do not add the forwarding light from the flash.

There is no right or wrong, it is just a tool to achieve the result I need.

Like this photo I post in the other thread. I basically bounce the flash off the ceiling and add a little forwarding light with a tiny paper. If not, there is a shadow right below the chips.

 

[Village Idiot]

Will.. of course.. you intentionally did all that.. I understand. You intentionally add racoon eyes. Yes those are cool shots but they are not "good" shot if your intent is to take a well lit subject. I think we are comparing apples and oranges. I am not disagreeing with you... seriously.

The intention is to add mood. A bounced light would have made everything about evenly and flatly exposed. It's not standard portrait lighting and it shouldn't be treated that way. Do you honestly think I was going for something like this:



Yeah, because that would be definitely fit those photos real well.

Bounce flash has it's place, but ordinarily it's flat and dull.

 

[Robin Usagani]

once again you missed my point. Now you are showing off camera flash with modifier. And.. bounced flash is not flat. How could it be flat if you purposely bounce it from an angle?

 

[Derrel]

Dao, using a bounce card seems to be VERY popular. Even our respected member Derrel thinks so. I never want to use a bounce card and definitely not stoffen or fong dong. I may use a bounce card if the room is not ideal for bouncing but I avoid it at all cost. Look at this link below. Also look at a few quotes I cut and pasted below.

http://neilvn.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/4-bouncing-flash/

"if you’re using the correct angle. And here I want to stress something again – shooting with an omnibounce at 60 or 45 degrees, should not be a default way of using flash."

"A key factor in both these images, was that there was NO light directly from my flash on my subject. All the light was indirect."

Basically if you add a stoffen or a bounce card, you are ADDING direct light. If you bounce your flash to the ceiling and wall behind you in an angle, that bright spot on the wall and ceiling WILL BE your catch light.

First off Schwettylens, you do not speak for me. WHY? Because you have ENTIRELY MISCONSTRUED, as in "effed up" and "failed to understand" that I was not talking about a bounce card. I said a plastic spoon. Or a bent business card. Neither of those are what is called a "bounce card". Bounce cards were invented before you were born. The business card or white plastic spoon is about the same size as the little white plastic slider-cards that Nikon and Canon and other flash makers have integrated in to their flash units. I was NOT talking about a 4x6 or 5x7 inch "bounce card". I'm talking about using bounce flash to create a LARGE, soft diffused source, while diverting perhaps 8% of the beam forward, using as I stated clearly, a plastic spoon, or a bent business card!!!!!!!

You might go through and re-read this thread, and find the instance where Dao mentions using a BUSINESS CARD as a way to add a catchlight. That is NOT, I repeat, that is NOT the same thing as using a "bounce card". I think you've got a lot to learn in terms of how different people are able to see things without prejudice and without making these broad, sweeping generalizations. Your propensity to want to categorize methods as good or bad or useless is troubling. When you step in and start mis-construing what "I said" and then trying to make your own points by referring to another person's web site? I find that annoying.

When you state that: " I never want to use a bounce card and definitely no stoffen or fong dong"--you show your total ignorance of what a "bounce card actually *is*." NEITHER of those things are "bounce cards".

 

[Robin Usagani]

I know what it is. You are adding a reflective subject to direct light directly from your flash. You mentioned that you disagreed with me. I disagreed back. Come on derrel.

 

[geraldsoh]

In my humble opinion, off-flash camera is better than on-flash camera. But ultimately, given a choice, I would shoot with natural light. Advice from a world class photographer, he said he himself dislike flash. Natural lighting is always the best. It will be great if you can take photos of your dog running around in the garden =)

 

[Robin Usagani]

In my humble opinion, off-flash camera is better than on-flash camera. But ultimately, given a choice, I would shoot with natural light. Advice from a world class photographer, he said he himself dislike flash. Natural lighting is always the best. It will be great if you can take photos of your dog running around in the garden =)

See.. here we go again. The OP is trying to improve her bouncing flash method and you compare DIRECT on camera flash with off camera flash.

 

[Dao]

Schwetty,

I understand 100% what you mean and I agree with you 98%. Because I believe a little forwarding light could ease the shadow a little. Take a look at this

http://home.comcast.net/~dougsmit/flashchoices3.jpg

< Photo taken by Doug Smith from this link (http://home.comcast.net/~dougsmit/bounceflashtoys.html) >

I like the bubble wrap effect because it soften the shadow a little and it comes in handy. Of course, it all comes down to personal preference. Some people may like the effect and some don't.

 

[Robin Usagani]

Dao... well you are the artist so it is really up to you. But based on the sample photos from those 2 links I still think the bounced with nothing on it is the best.

 

[Robin Usagani]

Of course I would agree with the macro stuff though since the subject is so close to the lens.

 

[Village Idiot]

once again you missed my point. Now you are showing off camera flash with modifier. And.. bounced flash is not flat. How could it be flat if you purposely bounce it from an angle?

:er: Yes, because you said that bounce flash was the **** and better than everything else...

Now, if you put the flash off the camera, all you are doing is putting the light source from an angle (which can already be accomplished with bounced on camera flash). Your flash is still harsh. Sure, you can add umbrella or softbox but then bouncing on camera is a lot easier because you can use your TTL, you can do 2nd curtain, you can do HSS/FP, which a lot of trigger wont do.

The only advantage of off camera flash is when you cant really bounce (i.e. outdoor, dark wall/ceiling), or when you are trying to be creative with multiple flash guns. You also get more consistent result because when you bounce, the flash metering is doing it's own thing and you dont get consistent result (plus your bounce change all time). I hope that makes sense.

And.. bounced flash is not flat. How could it be flat if you purposely bounce it from an angle?

Wellllll, the light source is huge and totally covers the subject vs. using the correct techniques and tools to sculpt the light for the look you want.

It's like trying to take out a fly with an atom bomb instead of a flyswatter.

 

[Derrel]

I know what it is. You are adding a reflective subject to direct light directly from your flash. You mentioned that you disagreed with me. I disagreed back. Come on derrel.

Come on what? You totally misconstrued what I was talking about. I even mentioned that is was a close-range method, well-suuited to situations JUST LIKE THE OP's shot of her dog inside of a living room. Yes, the job of the plastic spoon, or the half of a business card is to DIRECT SOME LIGHT straight ahead, and toward the subject. I have been shooting bounce flash since the early 1980's...I think I actually know what I am talking about. You? Not so sure. A "bounce card" is a specific type of photographic apparatus, usually measuring at least 4x6 inches, and it is used to "bounce the beam" of the flash, in its entirety. WHat me, and Dao, have been talking about is one,small,simple device. The kind of slide-out, half a business card-sized, white plastic thing that Canon, Sunpak,Nikon,Metz, and Vivitar are now including in their better flash units. I suppose you know better than the flash manufacturers how flash ought to be shot?? Aw, come on Schewtty....