Film beginner's questions

[ryunin]

leaning does not come in a few minutes,
your trying to cram to many items into your learning.

Understanding the Zone System can certainly help you understand tonal values in greyscale. WIth 35mm film you need to commint the whole roll to one set of numbers; ie. ISO and development times.

Start off simple, KISS.

take a roll of film doesn't make any difference whos, are what ISO, altho , i think tri x or hp5+ will be more forgiving.

Set the ISO at 400 and take about 18 exposures, the change the ISO to 200 and finish off the roll. I am not sure if your doing your own developing yet,but take it in and have the prints made and then look at them and you will see right away which ISO is giving you the best shadow detail, and the most imformtion.

Stick with that and the same shop so the developer and who ever is doing the work stays consistence and start taking more images and leaning as you go.

just use the camera meter, your making this much too difficult.

Is there some place you can take a class with someone who knows what they are doing in the darkroom. That should save you lots of time, energy and money.

btw what does start off simple KISS mean? Is KISS an abreviation of something? or your personal encouragement?

 

[dxqcanada2 1]

ahhh ... "Keep It Simple, and Stupid" or "Keep It Simple, Stupid" or "Keep It Short and Simple" or ...

 

[dxqcanada2 1]

I honesty do not think you need to know the Zone System to shoot B+W (other than large format).
I will say that it helped me visualize better ... especially when I was doing my own printing.

Jimi Hendrix may not have known about Music Theory ... but he did know how to take full advantage of his Tools, the same way a knowledgeable photographer would.

 

[ryunin]

I honesty do not think you need to know the Zone System to shoot B+W (other than large format).
I will say that it helped me visualize better ... especially when I was doing my own printing.

Jimi Hendrix may not have known about Music Theory ... but he did know how to take full advantage of his Tools, the same way a knowledgeable photographer would.

so should i forget zones, spot metering and just use matrix? could you suggest some first steps that should be taken? thanks

 

[ann]

put your meter in matrix mode and try the suggest i made several post back about changeing the ISO half way through the roll and then compare the detail especially the shadow detail. Which means see how much detail is available.

If you don't have the detail on the negative, you can't put it on the paper.

take lots of photos. learn to develop your own film so you can become more consistence. Months from know then you can review the zone theory to better understand grey scale placement . You will need to have more experience with manual metering to speed up the process of changing options . So at some time switch to manual metering if you want to pursue the ZOne system; however , as had been mentioned before that system was developed for LF film or for 120 film with interchangeable backs.

it is not a matter of forgetting, it is a matter of deciding the level of technical knowledge you wish to know and use. If you find your prints are great with because you have determined your EI for your equipment then continue to work in that manner.

YOur trying to do too much. YOu can't pour years of information into several weeks or even months.

You could learn a terrific amount if you spent at least 50 hours a week in the darkroom for at least one year, but most people don't have that kind of time when they are your age .

This is a hands on craft, get out and start taking photos and remember every photographer has made the same mistakes, every one from Ansel Adams to Platon (doesn't make any difference) so you are in good company.

ps. KISS means Keep it Simple, very Simple (i hate the word stupid)
EI means expousre index ( when you determine times other than the box speed and recommended development times.

 

[gsgary]

Wow, I hope that wasn't here.

To answer a few of your questions:

Yes, the Zone system is still good to know, and you should learn it. Even if you only shoot digital, you need to know this stuff.

The meter in your camera wants to put everything in Zone V. If the object you are metering really is in zone V, all is good and you don't have to do anything. BUT - If it's in Zone II - a rock face in shadow, for example - your meter will be wrong. You will have to underexpose by 3 stops to get that shadow where it belongs.

Curves can help - but they help a lot more when you start off close to where you want to be.

"Just use matrix"... That just sounds like the guy who said that didn't want to take the 5 minutes it would have taken to explain this stuff to you.

Matrix is good if the scene is relatively evenly lit. If you have bright highlights and dark shadows though... Your meter will be fooled. Spot metering is useful here.

Keep in mind that your camera puts everything in Zone V. When you meter the shadow, what does it tell you? When you meter the highlight, what does it tell you? This is the dynamic range of the scene, and in most cases you'll probably want to expose somewhere between those extremes.

Thank you!

Can I now continue with a string of questions? I dont expect them to be answered all or soon, just whoever wants to answer, thanks a million.

Zone system. I have read articles about it, but no books about it. How deep should we go to learn it? On the level of an entire book, or on the level like books that make it simple on 60 pages or Zone System Simplified or something or is one article enough?

What confuses me too, before I even start to learn Zone system is the easiness of exposure film outdoors. I cannot understand how that Zone system can help when I am standing in a street, want to make sure the sky is not overexposed. What I do is just point the camera at the lightest spot on the sky, meter, lock it, change the composition and shoot. Then I end up with a picture I can work with - adjust contrast, curves. The exposure and negative look just spot on whenever I use this technique . I don't lose any detail in shades and can go all contrasty or not. Is Zone system unnecessary in this situation? I read an article about Spot metering that says it works just like I have just described it.

And one more question that is directly linked with the one above. If the books say that with film you have to meter the shadows, not lights, how do I know if I overexpose sky or face? Say I want to shoot a portrait indoors. Film, I meter the darkest part of the jacket, shirt, whatever, lock exposure, change the composition, shoot. I end up with ugly overexposed face. Or not? If the light is pretty harsh, I cannot imagine how I could avoid overexposing the face, unless we talk about developing that film in a way that would shrink the dynamic range as to get well exposed lights.

When im shooting in the street i take a reading off my hand and shoot away http://gsgary.smugmug.com/Street-Scenes/Street-Photography/Scan10006ps/702267616_LdQrG-L.jpg

 

[ann]

the palm of your hand is still middle gray, but it is a good method to use if your hand is in the same lighting as the subject and you can't get closer for a better reading.

 

[dxqcanada2 1]

As there is no EXIF data recorded ... you should make notes on exposure.

... ah I forgot to add ... as a film shooter you should get used to "reading" a negative for it's density levels, as the print may not be the best reference.

 

[ryunin]

thank you everyone for the tips!

could you go / if you are not too busy or bored with my questions/ and check my "Kids" gallery at my web Roman Valek Photography which consists only of pictures taken with my film camera and tell me if you can see exposure related technical mistakes - providing something like that is possible as there was a lab development involved and lab scanning - I only did the shooting (aperture priority and spot metering) and postprocessed the scans from the lab in Photoshop, so maybe there is no way to see what I did myself in terms of exposure / are such pictures just a matter of chance on my part? is it impossible to evaluate the mistakes of the photographer from such pictures if the photographer didn't develop the film by himself or herself?

 

[cfeldman10]

I started learning film photography in school before buying a DSLR camera. I find that understanding the basics of film really helped with shooting digitally - even thought I never shot stills on film and only movies. After experimenting more with stills photography, I feel like I can control so much of my image and know how to achieve certain looks.

 

[ryunin]

It seems before I develop negatives on my own, the technical quality of my film photographs is impossible to judge. Will it be possible to see mistakes in exposure when I develop film on my own? On the one hand it seems the learning curve o film photography is extremely steep and people talk about hundreds of exposures before one has at least some technical skills. On the other hand lots of people say to develop a negative is a matter of one afternoon and with matrix metering most shots will be exposed properly. What would be the next step then?

 

[ann]

developing film is very simple. as to learning to read the negative will take some time to learn.

Yes, to become a master printer takes time and work.

Just take some film, start taking pictures, develop the negatives and start making some prints.
There are some good basic books available , and in fact ilford has some very good tutorials on line . you might check out Henry Horenstein "Black and White Photography, A Basic Manual" It has been used for many years in many class rooms.

another would be the Upton book on photographer which has also been found in many classrooms.

I think it would be helpful to you to start listening to only one voice as you have so many people offering advise (which is a good thing) but it is bouncing all over the place.

Just start with A. which is making images (use the same film , same camera and the same processing location; either lab or youself. Again the technical will come with the practice, not just reading and trying to figure out so many variables at one time.

 

[dxqcanada2 1]

Learn how to read a negative.
It will tell you about your exposure.

 

[ryunin]

OK.

 

[gsgary]

It seems before I develop negatives on my own, the technical quality of my film photographs is impossible to judge. Will it be possible to see mistakes in exposure when I develop film on my own? On the one hand it seems the learning curve o film photography is extremely steep and people talk about hundreds of exposures before one has at least some technical skills. On the other hand lots of people say to develop a negative is a matter of one afternoon and with matrix metering most shots will be exposed properly. What would be the next step then?

When you look at your negs it's the opposite to digital, if they are dark you have overexposed, bright underexposed