full censor vs a crop sensor is their a $1500.00 difference

[usayit]

You need a company to tell you whether or not you are their target market, rather than figuring it out based upon price and features.

I don't know if you have marketing, sales, or customer front experience, but this is 100% correct. People don't know how much sales and marketing plays in the business world. The most widely market (and successful) products are not always the best (as Overread said alread) and sometimes the best products fail simply because they failed to market properly.

Every and I mean EVERY successful profitable well known product is carried to market on the backs of the marketing and sales department. Period. Apple, Microsoft, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Coke, McDonalds (who actually makes more money from real-estate), etc... Some of the best designs come from companies that you nor I have never heard of but marketed via these well known brands; rebranding is a huge business. HOYA for example is THE largest manufacturer of optics. You would be naive to think that off the shelf glass elements from well known brands (nikon and canon included) cannot be traced back to Hoya. If Hoya released their own branded lenses or cameras, it would fail miserably but rebranded under another is a different story.



Apple Computers is a MASTER at this. The lines are well defined, their mission is well defined, customers know a Mac when they see it, and they are often duplicated/copied. Even so much as to be brazen enough to tell the customers what is best for them rather than simply bend at every customer request. Did you know that the original Ipod design (after much field questioning) had 4 extra buttons? It still is a common design to create a dedicated button for each and every feature. It was Steve Jobs and design team that removed the extra buttons from the design while everyone said WTF? They were right... as the clean uncluttered design still prevails to this day.

 

[manaheim]

You need a company to tell you whether or not you are their target market, rather than figuring it out based upon price and features.

I don't know if you have marketing, sales, or customer front experience, but this is 100% correct. People don't know how much sales and marketing plays in the business world. The most widely market (and successful) products are not always the best (as Overread said alread) and sometimes the best products fail simply because they failed to market properly.

Every and I mean EVERY successful profitable well known product is carried to market on the backs of the marketing and sales department. Period. Apple, Microsoft, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Coke, McDonalds (who actually makes more money from real-estate), etc... Some of the best designs come from companies that you nor I have never heard of but marketed via these well known brands; rebranding is a huge business. HOYA for example is THE largest manufacturer of optics. You would be naive to think that off the shelf glass elements from well known brands (nikon and canon included) cannot be traced back to Hoya. If Hoya released their own branded lenses or cameras, it would fail miserably but rebranded under another is a different story.



Apple Computers is a MASTER at this. The lines are well defined, their mission is well defined, customers know a Mac when they see it, and they are often duplicated/copied. Even so much as to be brazen enough to tell the customers what is best for them rather than simply bend at every customer request. Did you know that the original Ipod design (after much field questioning) had 4 extra buttons? It still is a common design to create a dedicated button for each and every feature. It was Steve Jobs and design team that removed the extra buttons from the design while everyone said WTF? They were right... as the clean uncluttered design still prevails to this day.

Sure, and I completely get this, but generally I've found camera folks to be more of the geekier set... or at least folks who will dive deeply into understanding what it is they need and all the individual knobs and dials they'll need to twist and turn to make it happen. For these folks, branding seems like more of a secondary amusement and a way to go "yay team" than it does a way to understand what they should be buying.

But then, I did recently see a chart that showed Canon MASSIVELY out-selling Nikon (though I'm still not certain if that's just because Canon sells lots of non-Camera related stuff where Nikon doesn't really do that as far as I am aware)... and maybe that is because they absolutely get what splashing white paint on a lens does for marketing and Nikon totally doesn't. (and I can totally see that, btw... it's clearly not Nikon's personality to worry about flare... hell, for some time before I bothered to look, I was convinced Nikon was a German company)

So if you take that to it's logical conclusion, it would make sense that a Canon person might be more likely to go "Well, man, I don't know what I'm supposed to be buying in the Nikon product set! Where's the product line? Where's the special distinguishing name or characteristic?" It seems absolutely wacky to me, but then... I'm a Nikon person AND a geek by trade. Branding and marketing isn't lost on me, but I don't need it to decide what I want to do... it just sometimes brings my attention to something I may be interested in.

In the end, I guess this gives me a very different way to look at the Nikon/Canon religious wars... and it makes it very very very interesting.

 

[camz]

Chris the original discussion with Overread was how Canon product line conveyed an equated product distinction. This is just a very small part of the picture that I wanted to share as I too had a similar perception.

There are other plenty more variables and data points that were taken into consideration in my behalf for making a Canon decision back in 03. It's just I have grown accustomed to Canon since and that decision has deeply commited me into the investment of Canon gear.

Based on today's data points and variables, honestly if I would've started over today I would chose Nikon and this is what I recommend to all the starting photographers that ask me that question today regarding just photography. Video is a different story...

But it doesn't really matter for me at this point - I don't think my pictures will improve one iota if I switch. But it sure does make for interesting discussion . We should just get some beers get together and talk rhetoricals

 

[Overread36]

It's not so much that its impossible to understand the Nikon line, but that its not easily viewable at a glance. As someone shooting nikon and well into the hobby the light marketing and product placement might seem silly since its all so obvious -- however for those on the outside. Either those new to the hobby or those in another brand, the product line up is more complicated because you've got to juggle lots of new info - for those new to the scene this is confusing because they are already trying to work out apertures and all the rest as well as the relative worth of these things to them -- for those in the scene but in another brand its confusing because they might start looking at 2nd hand. A 2nd hand middle or upper level body is often better than a new entry level - but when the brand lines are not clearly defined its confusing to work out what was were in the product line up (Esp since 2nd hand prices drop down).

Also remember your entry level (your rebel shooters ) are not just geeks, like the computer, the SLR is no longer a pro and geeky thing - its a "cool" "hip" thingy now and many of these customers are your regular parents and people. So product placement to simplify things makes it a lot easier to sell them stuff

 

[Overread36]

Based on today's data points and variables, honestly if I would've started over today I would chose Nikon and this is what I recommend to all the starting photographers that ask me that question today regarding just photography.

TONY!
YouTube - ‪What the Duck Animated Comic Strip 513‬‏

 

[camz]

 

[usayit]

Based on today's data points and variables, honestly if I would've started over today I would chose Nikon and this is what I recommend to all the starting photographers that ask me that question today regarding just photography. Video is a different story...

Back when Pentax introduced their first 135 body with the first automatic return mirror:

"Based on today's data points and variables, honestly if I would've started over today I would chose Pentax and this is what I recommend to all the starting photographers that ask me that question today regarding just photography."

Back when Minolta introduced the first successfully marketed integrated 135 AF body (minolta 7000),

"Based on today's data points and variables, honestly if I would've started over today I would chose Minolta and this is what I recommend to all the starting photographers that ask me that question today regarding just photography."

Back when Canon introduced massive jumps described in terms of USM, IS, etc...

"Based on today's data points and variables, honestly if I would've started over today I would chose Canon and this is what I recommend to all the starting photographers that ask me that question today regarding just photography."

Back when Nikon jumped ahead in terms of high ISO performance...

"Based on today's data points and variables, honestly if I would've started over today I would chose Nikon and this is what I recommend to all the starting photographers that ask me that question today regarding just photography."

Back when <insert reason here>:

"Based on today's data points and variables, honestly if I would've started over today I would chose <insert brand here> and this is what I recommend to all the starting photographers that ask me that question today regarding just photography."


When does it stop? "it doesn't" That's the nature of the game. At the root, photography doesn't change, people do and their perceptions do.


In my retail experience, 9/10 the photog walking through that door about to switch systems is doing it for all the wrong reasons. Did I tell them that? NO way.. I would have been fired. Camera shops make HUGE profits from these people. "So watcha going to do with the old system?" "Let me take your troubles away and put them on consignment... ok? For a measly 20% to 50% commission.."

 

[camz]

Ok point taken.

But all that matters is what's current, should we just stop and hold our horses since change is inevitable?

 

[Dao]

We should just get some beers get together and talk rhetoricals

Now. who is buying?

 

[camz]

We should just get some beers get together and talk rhetoricals

Now. who is buying?

usayit is

 

[Gaerek]

I can actually think of ONE scenario where you could argue crop-sensor would be better. Can you? I'm pretty sure you're just blustering without any goddamned clue what the hell you're talking about. Prove me wrong.

I know, not directed at me, but I have a buddy who shoots wildlife. His primary camera is a 7d. If you ask him why, his response: "It's like a built in 1.6x telephoto converter that doesn't add any weight, allows me to haul around one less piece of gear, lets me use full resolution, and lets me use max aperture."

Keep in mind, the weight and extra gear thing is important to him. He usually backpacks 20-75 miles when he goes shooting, so every ounce he can save on weight is important to him. He actually told me he'd be completely willing to use a Rebel instead, if it could shoot as many frames as a 7d. Mainly for the few ounces of weight he'd save.

Oh, also, not all L glass is white. Look for the red stripe.

 

[jake337]

Lets face it only Canon has the L lens and the 1D series as well as the Rebel. Almost anyone gets that -
L = top range lens
1D series = top range body
Rebel = entry level body

however Nikon, Sony, Pentax, Oly - almost all the others lack a really clear market cut like that. Granted I'm a canon shooter so slightly bias, but I've never understood all the labels Nikon has for stuff - and they don't have their Nikkor range limited to top range glass (it seems to be everything unless I've got that part wrong).

I think this is why Nikon dropped the double digit series(d90, d80, etc).
Soon you will be able to look at their lineup and it will be pretty straight forward.

Dx
Dxxx
dxxxx

 

[manaheim]

I can actually think of ONE scenario where you could argue crop-sensor would be better. Can you? I'm pretty sure you're just blustering without any goddamned clue what the hell you're talking about. Prove me wrong.

I know, not directed at me, but I have a buddy who shoots wildlife. His primary camera is a 7d. If you ask him why, his response: "It's like a built in 1.6x telephoto converter that doesn't add any weight, allows me to haul around one less piece of gear, lets me use full resolution, and lets me use max aperture."

DUDE. You weren't supposed to give him the answer!

Camz and Over- I'll respond to your stuff tonight. I'm late and gotta go home, but loving the discourse. I just had to poke this guy for letting the blow-hard off easy.

 

[KmH]

I think this is why Nikon dropped the double digit series(d90, d80, etc).
Soon you will be able to look at their lineup and it will be pretty straight forward.

Dx
Dxxx
dxxxx

Well, in the prosumer lineup they went D100, D200, D300 in APS-C and D700 in full frame.

So they are now limited to D400, D500, D600 in APS-C and D800 and D900 in full frame. Where do they go after that? A D10000 APS-C and a D50000 full frame?

Otherwise they have to do something else, unless they start going D301, D302, D303.... D701, D702, etc.

In the entry-level they have already established precendent when they used the D3000/D3100, D5000/D5100, and D7000, which following their convention, so far, will be replaced by the D7100 at some later date.

 

[jake337]

I think this is why Nikon dropped the double digit series(d90, d80, etc).
Soon you will be able to look at their lineup and it will be pretty straight forward.

Dx
Dxxx
dxxxx

Well, in the prosumer lineup they went D100, D200, D300 in APS-C and D700 in full frame.

So they are now limited to D400, D500, D600 in APS-C and D800 and D900 in full frame. Where do they go after that? A D10000 APS-C and a D50000 full frame?

Otherwise they have to do something else, unless they start going D301, D302, D303.... D701, D702, etc.

In the entry-level they have already established precendent when they used the D3000/D3100, D5000/D5100, and D7000, which following their convention, so far, will be replaced by the D7100 at some later date.

Do you think they will proceed with a aps-c pro line?