HELP - ADVICE/OPINION WANTED

[weepete]

I think the way to deal with this is to be honest and upfront. Her wedding may be on Saturday but that is not your problem. I'd also be a bit concerned that should it end up in court, she may argue that by agreeing to take the images off your website your contract has now changed and you've agreed to her terms by taking the images down (implied or verbal contracts can sometimes hinge on whither one party has fullfilled all or part of the agreement). I think that you have given yorself a bit of leeway by saying that discussions can resume after the wedding, but I'd make it clear that this in no way changes your original agreement.

After thinking about it I think you should let her know your not going to bail on her and will still shoot the wedding but make it clear that you retain the rights to the images and you intend to use some for promotional purposes of your buisness. You could give her the option of buying the rights to the images but explain that it will cost a lot more (if that is something you'd consider) or give her the option of finding someone else to do the shoot. It may also be worth explaining that this is pretty much standard across the industry.

I understand why its tempting to just shoot the wedding and deal with it later but I think you may end up with a real headache after if you do, especially if you go into this with her thinking you've just agreed to her terms.

 

[texkam]

Appease until after the wedding. At that point if the issue still remains, remind her that she entered into a contract and that one factor your price quote is based on is the value these images will bring to your, and even your second shooter's portfolio. Being able to use these images is important for both of your marketing and that your attractive pricing reflects the ancillary marketing value of these images. Basically if she desires privacy the contract must be reworked and pricing adjusted in order to make up for YOUR loss. At that point she can decide if her privacy is woth paying for. No different than a roofer or painter putting a sign up in your front to market to your neighbors.

 

[Robin_Usagani]

My price is the same for weddings that is totally private or not.

 

[pixmedic]

I think the girls may be onto something. It may be a stretch of the imagination...but maybe she's got a jealous Ex or estranged relative that she is worried might crash the wedding. So she wants to make it hard for anyone to figure out where her wedding is....thus she asks you to take down the images and any links to the venue.

Again, as mentioned by the lovely ladies...she's probably feeling stressed to the max...as is typical right before a wedding.

So I think that the best course of action is to take down/hide the blog posts to make her happy and shoot the wedding. But before you turn anything over to her...have a discussion about usage rights etc.
You do seem to hold all the cards, and you could put the pressure on her before the wedding, but I agree with you that that wouldn't be the best course of action. But after the wedding, you will still hold all the cards and you will still have possession of the images that she will want. So then you tell her that she can have the images (or whatever medium was agreed upon) but that you will have full rights to use them.....or she can pay you extra for the usage rights of all the images (up to you to figure a price). Then you give her everything and wash your hands of the whole thing.

Trying to imagine worst case scenarios...if you put the screws to her, she will likely tell a bunch of people and give you a bad rap. But if you play nice for now, and then go back to using the images...she may complain and tell people, but then she just sounds like a whiny B....unless of course, she has a very valid reason to worry about her privacy.

So, in the grand scheme of things...will it really hurt you if you can't show these on-line anymore? Maybe a little...but likely not much. And keeping her quite may be in your best interest. You don't want to just cave in to her bridezilla whims....but sometimes it's better to just keep quite, smile...and then never talk to them again.

my only problem with this is....where do you draw the line? i mean, not being able to show them online probably wont kill his business. then again, neither would giving her an extra 50% off. or shooting it for free. terms were agreed upon and a contract was signed. now all of a sudden, she wants to change a major term of the contract without giving any sort of legitimate explanation. A term i might add, that was the deciding factor for the price they got. The benefit of which they now want to take away, leaving Trevor with nothing but a cheap wedding deal that he probably would NOT have shot at that price. not cool. What if Trevor had gone to her less than a week before her wedding demanding more money than was agreed upon?
personally, I would not shoot this wedding until the details were ironed out and some sort of agreement was reached.
i know it sounds like i am taking a bit of a hard line on this, but...If I were shooting a wedding primarily for portfolio fodder, and priced it as such, I would tell the bride that the options are
A: I use the pictures as per the contract.
B: we work out a new contract based on a price for NOT using the pictures.
C: she finds another photographer more inclined to acquiesce to her request.

That isn't to say that she doesn't have some absolutely fantastic reason for why she suddenly cant have the pictures online that might convince me to work something out...but as it stands? im just not convinced it isn't for selfish reasons since they got a great price. I think its a far better idea to get it all out in the open now and lay all the cards on the table before the wedding than give her the illusion that the pictures are down for good only to make her feel like she got stabbed in the back later when you tell her your putting them back up after you've already got them.

Man...i do NOT envy your position here. whatever you decide, I hope you keep us in the loop on how it goes. Whatever you decide to tell her, make sure it is worded very carefully and you have it in writing.

 

[texkam]

^ Very compelling argument here.

 

[vintagesnaps]

I was thinking along the same lines as Kathy, sounds like something's going on that has her feeling like she needs protection. Having had jobs working with families I know sometimes circumstances can change literally overnight - you booked this a year ago so she may not have had concerns then that she seems to have now. There could be some overreaction or there could be a possibility that you'd be putting her at risk in some way using the photos taken at that particular venue. (It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense but I doubt we know the whole story.)

You said she wanted you to 'only use images she approved' - that seems to give you an option to work it out with her what photos you could use in a public portfolio. That seems to be the concern. Would it be an option to agree to a revised contract? or maybe do a contract regarding usage in an online portfolio? With pictures going viral and theft of photos being rampant it's in a way not surprising if clients start reacting to allowing usage of their photos. As someone mentioned it was different when portfolios weren't online.

If not being able to use these photos makes it a situation as you described as being out valuable material and you basically working for free then you might be at a point of needing to rethink your pricing. Even if the current contract means you're right in being able to use her photos, it might not be worth the trouble and might be best to take the photos down and see what you can work out with her after the wedding.

 

[Trever1t]

My price is the same for weddings that is totally private or not.

Not helpful to this discussion, another one for future reference perhaps but no help here.

 

[Trever1t]

I'm not an uncompromising person but I don't take well to demands. At this point I've agreed to take them down temporarily if only to relieve her stress before the wedding. Thanks for all the great commentary, it's my belief that is the real purpose of this site in it's glory.

 

[pixmedic]

I'm not an uncompromising person but I don't take well to demands. At this point I've agreed to take them down temporarily if only to relieve her stress before the wedding. Thanks for all the great commentary, it's my belief that is the real purpose of this site in it's glory.

no problem man!
keep us updated on how things go.
and post some wedding pics!

 

[Big Mike]

I think the girls may be onto something. It may be a stretch of the imagination...but maybe she's got a jealous Ex or estranged relative that she is worried might crash the wedding. So she wants to make it hard for anyone to figure out where her wedding is....thus she asks you to take down the images and any links to the venue.

Again, as mentioned by the lovely ladies...she's probably feeling stressed to the max...as is typical right before a wedding.

So I think that the best course of action is to take down/hide the blog posts to make her happy and shoot the wedding. But before you turn anything over to her...have a discussion about usage rights etc.
You do seem to hold all the cards, and you could put the pressure on her before the wedding, but I agree with you that that wouldn't be the best course of action. But after the wedding, you will still hold all the cards and you will still have possession of the images that she will want. So then you tell her that she can have the images (or whatever medium was agreed upon) but that you will have full rights to use them.....or she can pay you extra for the usage rights of all the images (up to you to figure a price). Then you give her everything and wash your hands of the whole thing.

Trying to imagine worst case scenarios...if you put the screws to her, she will likely tell a bunch of people and give you a bad rap. But if you play nice for now, and then go back to using the images...she may complain and tell people, but then she just sounds like a whiny B....unless of course, she has a very valid reason to worry about her privacy.

So, in the grand scheme of things...will it really hurt you if you can't show these on-line anymore? Maybe a little...but likely not much. And keeping her quite may be in your best interest. You don't want to just cave in to her bridezilla whims....but sometimes it's better to just keep quite, smile...and then never talk to them again.

my only problem with this is....where do you draw the line? i mean, not being able to show them online probably wont kill his business. then again, neither would giving her an extra 50% off. or shooting it for free. terms were agreed upon and a contract was signed. now all of a sudden, she wants to change a major term of the contract without giving any sort of legitimate explanation. A term i might add, that was the deciding factor for the price they got. The benefit of which they now want to take away, leaving Trevor with nothing but a cheap wedding deal that he probably would NOT have shot at that price. not cool. What if Trevor had gone to her less than a week before her wedding demanding more money than was agreed upon?
personally, I would not shoot this wedding until the details were ironed out and some sort of agreement was reached.
i know it sounds like i am taking a bit of a hard line on this, but...If I were shooting a wedding primarily for portfolio fodder, and priced it as such, I would tell the bride that the options are
A: I use the pictures as per the contract.
B: we work out a new contract based on a price for NOT using the pictures.
C: she finds another photographer more inclined to acquiesce to her request.

That isn't to say that she doesn't have some absolutely fantastic reason for why she suddenly cant have the pictures online that might convince me to work something out...but as it stands? im just not convinced it isn't for selfish reasons since they got a great price. I think its a far better idea to get it all out in the open now and lay all the cards on the table before the wedding than give her the illusion that the pictures are down for good only to make her feel like she got stabbed in the back later when you tell her your putting them back up after you've already got them.

Man...i do NOT envy your position here. whatever you decide, I hope you keep us in the loop on how it goes. Whatever you decide to tell her, make sure it is worded very carefully and you have it in writing.

Lots of good points, and I don't disagree. But as somebody pointed out...if they are satisfied, they tell one person...but if they are dissatisfied, they tell 10 people.
We all know that Trever would be fully in the right and all that good stuff...but that won't matter to the 10 people she complains to, because he won't be there to argue his side of things.

A good reputation can take years to build and only minutes to knock down. So I just put forth the question...is it going to be worth it, in the long run? Is this hill worth dying on?

Of course, it's a slippery slope and you don't (can't) be the type of business that lets clients walk all over them. But it's just one wedding, in what may be many hundreds of weddings.

 

[pixmedic]

I think the girls may be onto something. It may be a stretch of the imagination...but maybe she's got a jealous Ex or estranged relative that she is worried might crash the wedding. So she wants to make it hard for anyone to figure out where her wedding is....thus she asks you to take down the images and any links to the venue.

Again, as mentioned by the lovely ladies...she's probably feeling stressed to the max...as is typical right before a wedding.

So I think that the best course of action is to take down/hide the blog posts to make her happy and shoot the wedding. But before you turn anything over to her...have a discussion about usage rights etc.
You do seem to hold all the cards, and you could put the pressure on her before the wedding, but I agree with you that that wouldn't be the best course of action. But after the wedding, you will still hold all the cards and you will still have possession of the images that she will want. So then you tell her that she can have the images (or whatever medium was agreed upon) but that you will have full rights to use them.....or she can pay you extra for the usage rights of all the images (up to you to figure a price). Then you give her everything and wash your hands of the whole thing.

Trying to imagine worst case scenarios...if you put the screws to her, she will likely tell a bunch of people and give you a bad rap. But if you play nice for now, and then go back to using the images...she may complain and tell people, but then she just sounds like a whiny B....unless of course, she has a very valid reason to worry about her privacy.

So, in the grand scheme of things...will it really hurt you if you can't show these on-line anymore? Maybe a little...but likely not much. And keeping her quite may be in your best interest. You don't want to just cave in to her bridezilla whims....but sometimes it's better to just keep quite, smile...and then never talk to them again.

my only problem with this is....where do you draw the line? i mean, not being able to show them online probably wont kill his business. then again, neither would giving her an extra 50% off. or shooting it for free. terms were agreed upon and a contract was signed. now all of a sudden, she wants to change a major term of the contract without giving any sort of legitimate explanation. A term i might add, that was the deciding factor for the price they got. The benefit of which they now want to take away, leaving Trevor with nothing but a cheap wedding deal that he probably would NOT have shot at that price. not cool. What if Trevor had gone to her less than a week before her wedding demanding more money than was agreed upon?
personally, I would not shoot this wedding until the details were ironed out and some sort of agreement was reached.
i know it sounds like i am taking a bit of a hard line on this, but...If I were shooting a wedding primarily for portfolio fodder, and priced it as such, I would tell the bride that the options are
A: I use the pictures as per the contract.
B: we work out a new contract based on a price for NOT using the pictures.
C: she finds another photographer more inclined to acquiesce to her request.

That isn't to say that she doesn't have some absolutely fantastic reason for why she suddenly cant have the pictures online that might convince me to work something out...but as it stands? im just not convinced it isn't for selfish reasons since they got a great price. I think its a far better idea to get it all out in the open now and lay all the cards on the table before the wedding than give her the illusion that the pictures are down for good only to make her feel like she got stabbed in the back later when you tell her your putting them back up after you've already got them.

Man...i do NOT envy your position here. whatever you decide, I hope you keep us in the loop on how it goes. Whatever you decide to tell her, make sure it is worded very carefully and you have it in writing.

Lots of good points, and I don't disagree. But as somebody pointed out...if they are satisfied, they tell one person...but if they are dissatisfied, they tell 10 people.
We all know that Trever would be fully in the right and all that good stuff...but that won't matter to the 10 people she complains to, because he won't be there to argue his side of things.

A good reputation can take years to build and only minutes to knock down. So I just put forth the question...is it going to be worth it, in the long run? Is this hill worth dying on?

Of course, it's a slippery slope and you don't (can't) be the type of business that lets clients walk all over them. But it's just one wedding, in what may be many hundreds of weddings.

no, I agree on the reputation thing.
and it IS a slippery slope...on both aspects.
its a tough situation regardless of the thought process.
only one wedding though? next time its only two weddings. then only three weddings.
And the wedding they referred to you? They told them that you will waffle if they just put on a little pressure.
i know i know..its kind of an extreme scenario but...
im just trying to look at this from the other side. what would people be saying if Trevor went to them and demanded more money than what had been contractually agreed on? people would be outraged I think. but that's exactly what they are doing to Trevor. Im sure we dont have all the information, but it is kinda sounding like they want to have their cake and eat it too. time will tell I guess. Trevor's a real pro so i have no doubt he will handle this thing with everybody coming out smelling like roses.
this might not be a hill worth dying on, but that doesn't mean he should let himself get kicked down it.

speaking of....
we were thinking of getting some professional formal family portraits done.
any photographers in the area that are cool with "not dying on the hill" that could work us a deal? :mrgreen:
nah...im just kidding. I jest, I jest (did I use the right font for a joke?)


seriously tho, we ARE overdue for some family photos.

 

[Trever1t]

Fly me there and put me up in a hotel and I'm your photographer for a weekend

 

[Trever1t]

This just received

Hi Bill,

Since we're apparently having problems communicating now, and even back when we signed this contact, how about we make this quick & simple and propose our best compromise that we'd be willing to accept.

This would make this less stressful for all of us, and it seems like we all need less stress here.

If you refuse, we will try to find a new photographer at the last minute willing to agree to our privacy terms, or ask a friend to take dedicated pictures for us. You don't come to our wedding - keep what you think is fair from our payment, already made in full - keeping in mind we obviously intended to sign up for our wedding pictures being taken for US, not WSG Wedding Photography Promotion.

Additional terms:

- Photographer (Bill Grayson, WSG) does not share any of client's photos unless approved by client on any medium, including Facebook, webpages, everything.

- Client (Mark & Van) agree to select a minimum 4 pictures from the photoshoot, and 4 pictures from the wedding, which include the Bride & Groom in the picture, to be shared on WSG website and WSG facebook page only - for WSG promotion purposes as basically a small online example album.

- Photographer agrees to not include any keywords/tags with the pictures that may help cause the pictures to be found with search engine type software. Any wording / tagging / search-tricks must be approved by client.

- Client co-owns full rights to hi-resolution version of all pictures, as clearly discussed during the original meeting, but not described correctly on the fine print / back page of the contract.



Please respond with a Yes/No by today 8/13.

 

[pixmedic]

gotta tell ya man....that really looks like they are being asses about it.
photos for US, not for WSG photography promotion...
the additional terms pretty much give you zero right to do much of anything without their express permission.
hope you accounted for that in the wedding fee.
whatcha gonna do?
personally, I would TOTALLY opt out of this deal.
these people are going to be trouble. with a capital F.U.

 

[Trever1t]

working on a polite response right now...this is truly sad, I was very much looking forward to this.