I have noticed something. Have you?

[Neil S.]

OK sure I admit I am one of those people. I've had the camera for 6 months now and yes, I do charge people. But I know one thing that can separate me from the rest of the group (people who just bought cameras who think they can become professional):
1. I am a fast learner when it comes to ANY computer programs. I am THAT guy at work (engineering firm) where everyone asks question to when they have software question.
2. I have messed around with photoshop for many years. Some of you have seen what I can do with Photoshop.

So my point is, digital photography involves heavily on post processing as well. So I think just because I've only shot for 6 months you could just say I shouldn't charge people. I know more PP than most beginners and some seasoned professionals.(I am putting my fire suit on.. let the flaming begin!)

Don't listen to these guys Schwetty...

They are on a witch hunt for pro photographers that haven’t been to some fancy school, or that werent taught by some master.

Becoming a photographer doesn't require that you go visit Pai Mei...

At the end of the day what’s really important is that you did a good job and that the customer is happy. How you get to that point doesn’t really matter that much in my opinion.

Like I said in an above post, the quality of the work by the average pro photographer has probably dropped over the years.

This is only because there are now so many more people that consider themselves professionals, and that many of these self-taught people have poor knowledge and abilities.

That’s not to say that you can't be self-taught and still be a good pro photographer.

The bad ones will be seen as bad, and the good ones will look all that much better because of it.

There was some woman on here a while back talking trash about some other pro photographer, and how she could take much better pictures. I told her something like "If it's true that you can take much better pictures, you should thank them for making you look that much better"

Cream always rises to the top, and if you deserve the jobs they will come to you. Its not that hard to stand out if everyone else is bad.

I don't understand why people get so upset and worried about what other people are doing.

The biggest challenge to overcome is within yourself, it is not other people.

 

[Neil S.]

Certifications for occupations such as practicing medicine arrose out of necessity. Individuals who practiced medicine in the past made mistakes and caused more harm than good, so it was a necessity to produce licenses and certifications and then require them by law.

In medieval europe, if you wanted to enter a profession you apprenticed and eventually were of high enough quality to enter into a social standard by the guild into which you were allowed. I'm not equating taking a photograph to open-heart surgery, I'm simply trying to show the flaws in the logic that was being proliferated here.

So perhaps the law needs to catch up here, where the only regulation to date is business models, demand.. and you get what you pay for.

No the law doesn’t need to do anything here.

Being a pro photographer is so much different from being a medical doctor for so many reasons.

If the U.S. was going to make a law saying that you need to be licensed to be a photographer, then they will need to pass many more laws as well.

Whats next?

A law requiring a license to paint a picture and sell it?

What about a license to write a book? Let’s also make it so the government has to approve the topic for "safety reasons".

We can't have any free thinking going on now can we? That would be too dangerous…yikes!

How about a law requiring a license to walk down the street while we are at it? Ya that’s a good one, I would definitely vote for that.

I can't stand this mentality that everything needs to be controlled and regulated.

 

[pbelarge]

There are BILLIONs of people in the world. That leaves a lot of 'room'...


Let the new photogs take photos and charge. Generally there are those who are looking for bargain prices, we in this country have grown up learning to seek out the lowest price and bargain as consumers.

So...
Let the new "photographer" round up all of the bargain hunters and the "professional" can concentrate on those with discriminating eyes and a larger pocket book to fulfill each other's needs.


What this means is the newbie is saving the experienced from those who are just looking for a bargain.

Do some slip through the cracks? Yes, so what.

Who does this type of business really hurt? The marginal professional who got by with mediocre talent and now cannot compete...those will become endangered species, the REAL professional photographers will survive.

BTW:
Photography is no different than any other profession, meaning: The grass is no greener next door.

 

[Joshua_Lee]

Man I love forums! I can't believe I have found a forum for photography and proper grammar in the same place. I will have to remember that next time I post a picture followed by a story.

Couple of things:

To the guy who thinks I am worrying about this. It was just something I observed and not something I am worrying about. I personally know 3 people who have purchased a DSLR in the last year. All 3 now have websites and are charging for their work. Sorry if I may have exaggerated. Do you spend countless hours writing your local news telling them they exaggerate their stories. My exaggeration was to get my point across. Also, the reason for this forum is for criticism whether good or bad. It is what makes us better at what we do. We live in a society now that thinks it is disrespectful to reveal the truth to someone. They would rather have smoke blown up their butt so they do not feel bad. Me, you can be as mean or as nice as you like. I will grow off of the average of what you way.

Most of you seem to agree on the original point I was trying to make. You see the above mentioned in every business whether it be landscaping, construction, design, service, etc. There is always someone out there that jumps into a profession based on little knowledge. They then charge cheap pricing undercutting the ones who actually do quality work. I guess they get away with it most of the time do to the general public's lack of knowledge in the product or service they are seeking.

Thanks all who replied. I wanted your opinions and I got them. Outside of my 3 friends with DSLR's, I don't get to speak to other photographers very often. That is why I like this forum. It's full of information whether good or bad. It is up to us to weed out the good from bad.

Cheers,

 

[bhee321]

If someone see's your work.. regardless if your work is good or bad.. if they are willing to pay for that quality.. then so be it. someone put a rock in a box and made a million dollars.. people were willing to pay for it.. so be it.. simple as that..

 

[mrmacedonian]

I'm on no witch hunt nor do I think everything needs to be regulated, it's simply unsettling to hear people lessening the value of a proper education in any field/profession. There are always exceptions, individuals who operate outside of the normal realm of perspective and thought, and thats when you get individuals with no formal education that push and extend the field.

The point Derrel and other individuals are trying to explain is that this is becoming a statistical trend - people thinking they can supplement an education and experience with more expensive equipment and post processing. That's all, no need to flame on

That’s not to say that you can't be self-taught and still be a good pro photographer.

I hope so, as I'm an individual who has never had nor have any intention of obtaining a formal education in the field of Photography. I am and will pursue my passion for medicine (formally, I'm not a big fan of mexico) and will educate myself when it comes to photography - so I'm hoping I can eventually be a decent photographer.

btw.. the reason I entered the discussion wasn't to demean or flame anyone, but the reaction to the OP's and Derrel's position, which is a valid one. In my year observing and learning from this forum I can honestly say Derrel is one of the most knowledgeable, informative, comprehensive and coherent contributors to TPF and the nitpick-y, narrow-minded responses to his post are frustrating when the point has so blatantly gone above the responder's head.

 

[mrmacedonian]

No the law doesn’t need to do anything here.

Being a pro photographer is so much different from being a medical doctor for so many reasons.

If the U.S. was going to make a law saying that you need to be licensed to be a photographer, then they will need to pass many more laws as well.

Whats next?

A law requiring a license to paint a picture and sell it?

What about a license to write a book? Let’s also make it so the government has to approve the topic for "safety reasons".

We can't have any free thinking going on now can we? That would be too dangerous…yikes!

How about a law requiring a license to walk down the street while we are at it? Ya that’s a good one, I would definitely vote for that.

I can't stand this mentality that everything needs to be controlled and regulated.

...the point has so blatantly gone above the responder's head.

^

 

[Neil S.]

The point Derrel and other individuals are trying to explain is that this is becoming a statistical trend - people thinking they can supplement an education and experience with more expensive equipment and post processing. That's all, no need to flame on

First I would like to apologize to the OP.

You are right that you were simply making an observation, and that my statement of "why do people worry so much about others..." was unnecessary.

That is just something I have seen a lot here, people complaining about how bad some pro is.

@ mrmac...

You make a good point here.

This is no different than some other professions though.

I remember my mother went through a phase where she thought she was going to be a professional writer. Then she went through another one where she was all set to be a professional watercolor painter.

Of course she is neither now lol.

Anything that is both a relatively inexpensive hobby, and a profession, is something that people will try and make money at. This is especially true if it requires no formal training or license.

I understand your point, what I don’t understand is what you propose that we do about it.

It is what it is.

Please don’t say require a license to do it, because it will seriously send me over the edge lol...

 

[mrmacedonian]

No, I wasn't trying to suggest that we require a license for someone to take photographs >_<

My comparison to other professions that have established certification was one to show that it evolved to the point at which they are today.

My suggestion was that perhaps its a burden on the true professional photographers to establish standards then maintain them, accepting individuals that meet those standards under their reputation, hence my medieval guild analogy.

I don't think that photographs should be cookie cutter, but I believe you need to have a firm understanding of rules to break them, so it should be nothing to expect of individuals looking to break the rules and get paid to show an understanding of the foundation of the art in which they are calling themselves professionals.

 

[israel09]

I understood his point

But , When reading the first post I read it as "You dont go to school,,you suck!" lol

The internet has a mono-tone infliction , so I'm glad he cleared it up.

It seems hes directed toward the people who charge for pictures just because they have a good camera and no will to improve themselves.

 

[Neil S.]

No, I wasn't trying to suggest that we require a license for someone to take photographs >_<

My comparison to other professions that have established certification was one to show that it evolved to the point at which they are today.

My suggestion was that perhaps its a burden on the true professional photographers to establish standards then maintain them, accepting individuals that meet those standards under their reputation, hence my medieval guild analogy.

I don't think that photographs should be cookie cutter, but I believe you need to have a firm understanding of rules to break them, so it should be nothing to expect of individuals looking to break the rules and get paid to show an understanding of the foundation of the art in which they are calling themselves professionals.

It seems to me that it’s more about the customers than the pro photographers.

As was already stated before, there are certifications that you can get. This has not stopped the massive influx of self-taught people from getting into the business.

As long as the customer is willing to pay less for sub-standard work, nothing will change.

To be honest I feel that this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion here.

You could compare this to being a musician.

You could say that there are all kinds of people trying to make it in the industry taking the work from the real pros.

These same people (I have a cousin that does this) are usually just working small time gigs, like clubs and bars. Who really cares? I know I don't.

They aren’t taking away the record deals, or the stadium concerts from the real pros, so why does it matter?

No matter what we feel about it, complaining won’t help anything. This I am 100% sure of.

I could tell you about 100s of things that I don’t like in this world. I know that it won’t change anything though, so what’s the point?

 

[AgentDrex]

Well, I have to say this, generally I think that Derrell's viewpoints are admirable and useful, but comparing the un-traditionally-educated photographer to an unlicensed doctor, dentist, carpenter, etc. is just strange. The self-taught photographer is not going to kill someone if they don't know what they are doing with a certain technique.

Its almost like you're saying that you have no respect for people who teach themselves photography as a passionate hobby instead of shelling out money to someone who may or may not know what they are doing themselves just so the photographer can have a hobby...

I'm self-taught, which means I didn't take a Mass Communications course, but I did know enough to go to the correct areas to learn on my own without shelling out money which was better spent, IMO, on equipment that I could practice with. I didn't need to pay anyone how to turn the camera on, take the lens off, point it at a subject and press a shutter button.

I did need to look for answers on the web for composition tips, f-stops, shutter speeds, etc., but I knew logically where to look, what to take in as good knowledge and what to dismiss as bullocks.

I do not misrepresent myself in anyway about where I got my knowledge or how "good" I am at photography. I show people my photos, tell them I am a self-taught amateur and they seem to be impressed even more that I can take, what they consider, good photographs without "formal" training. I believe formal training is really using a camera, having a true passion for it, and not putting the camera down until you start developing a real eye for it.

If people get upset that others with expensive DSLRs are making money by simply leaving their camera on AUTO, yet other people who know all the intricacies of the relationships between shutter speed, focal length and aperture do not make a dime off of their photos, then I believe they should probably get out there and start marketing themselves quickly.

The reason those Auto users are making money is they are letting their expensive-a55 camera do everything for them and they have more time to go out there and sell themselves. The geeks on the other hand that know all the facets of photography have most likely spent more time learning, on their own, all the facets of photography and have no clue how to market themselves.

Going to school does not necessarily make a good photographer. A passionate person makes a good photographer, regardless whether they are self-taught or "formally" educated.

If you don't like Auto users making money, then go out and start marketing yourself. Just make sure your photos look better than the person making money off of photos done in auto mode.

That's it, flame away on me now.

 

[misstwinklytoes]

Those d@mn evil MWC! How dare they take mediocre pictures of people!

 

[Robin Usagani]

Im a DWC! Darn proud of it LOL :lmao:

 

[tnvol]

Im a DWC! Darn proud of it LOL :lmao:

I am too. I have fun with photography and will continue to do so. Snapshots and all. lol