Im a beginner

mike11165 · Aug 3, 2008

Im a beginner, but I dont want to ask beginners for the questions I have so Im not on the beginner forum, sorry. I am about to go from simple portrait and family pictures to more complex outdoor/ low light level and sports shots. I want to buy a digital SLR camera and have many questions. I want to upgrade to this type of camera but dont want to buy more than I need (im looking at nikon d300 or canon EOS 30 D)... they both seem like more camera than I need, but yet dont want to feel an upgrade is needed in the next year or so as my skills advance. I have also been told to spend more money on the lens than the camera body because thats where the picture quality comes from.... is that true?

Help.. ideally lm looking for camera and lens in the 1000 combined range but can go higher if it makes sense for an amateur...thanks!

clarbin · Aug 3, 2008

I don't think you're gonna find a D300 with a lens for $1000.

The body alone is around $1600 at most places. Give or take.

Tolyk · Aug 3, 2008

Yeah, that's what the D300 sells for at my work. 1648 or somethin'

The d200 just went on sale, down to 992..

mike11165 · Aug 3, 2008

yes i have been looking at that camera and it is more than the 1000 I was hoping to spend but is it worth the money over say a d40 or d50? thanks

Tolyk · Aug 3, 2008

the D300 isn't even in the same class as the d40. D40 is very entry level, you'd outgrow it very quickly.

D300 is mid-level. So, yes it is worth the money over a d40, but so is a d80. (higher end entry level)

Bifurcator · Aug 3, 2008

mike11165 said:
yes i have been looking at that camera and it is more than the 1000 I was hoping to spend but is it worth the money over say a d40 or d50? thanks

Yes! the d40 etc. is pretty much plastic trash. Really like a toy camera. That doesn't mean it won't take pictures. It just means there are way too many missing features, build quality is LOW!!! and I don't believe they will hold their price over time like the D300. They're based on an inferior CCD instead of CMOS. They can't use all the Nikon lenses. I guess I'm a snob by a few of the reactions I get to my opinions about the entry level canon and nikon dSLRs but to me they pretty much classify as a rip-off. I think it would be different if they were $150 or $200 with kit lens but they're more around the $550 ~ $600 mark. To me (maybe only me) that's like selling a child's plastic guitar (total junk) for $500 in a toy shop and then hitting the advertising avenues with everything you're got to get kids to buy it. That doesn't mean the strings don't make noise. And the ads work, people buy it. I can't figure it out tho.

Just me I guess.

mike11165 · Aug 3, 2008

ill look into the d80's that sounds like about what I need, you have canons on your sig... is there a compatible canon you think i should look at... and can you tell me... is the lens more important than the body for high quality? thanks!

mike11165 · Aug 3, 2008

Bifurcator,I know im whipping you, but im like a sponge right now trying to soak up as much as possible... please explain
ccd vs cmos. and thanks for your honety

Tolyk · Aug 3, 2008

Lenses are indeed more important than a super expensive body. The D80 is Nikon's only entry level that can use all their lens line-up with full autofocus and 100% metering, etc. It's a great one to look into.

As for Canon, eh.. their entry levels are kinda.. um.. lacking. I mean, they take great pictures, but feature wise the D80 just kind of wins out. I prefer Canon's full-frame cameras over Nikon's, but the D80 is pretty much king of the entry levels (in my opinion at least)

As for CCD vs CMOS, it's a different chip type, the major difference is colour accuracy. CMOS is superior in that regard.

mike11165 · Aug 3, 2008

Tolyk, that is the meat in the information hamburger I am hungry for my friend... I will focus my efforts towards a d80 and what is the different lens tech that nikon offers.. what is the dx tech? humble thanks from a beginner

Bifurcator · Aug 3, 2008

Well, that's a huge task to do right. A book or two maybe? Suffice to say that CCDs of that vintage are noisier, slower, less accurate and produce more heat than modern CMOS chips. In a way we're also comparing old vrs. new tho as most newer cameras with an acceptable build quality use CMOS.

If you really are in sponge mode you should do youself two favors.

1. Go to the camera shops and handle the cameras yourself in person. This is crucial. Tap the bodies with your fingers - give them a thump. And play with all the knobs etc. Take sample pics. Then move to the next model and do the same.

2. Use the google search engine and read or skim as much material as you can.

mike11165 · Aug 3, 2008

thanks for that advice and its not the first time i have heard that... two things... give me a good beginner book please for all around learning... two when i tap a camera, what am i listening for? Also, what features do you consider most important for a growing amateur to have on a camera? or better question.. what are the most difficult things that a professional controls themselves that an amateur should not attempt?

Bifurcator · Aug 3, 2008

Well, first there's safety in numbers. My opinion isn't the only one and I hope when others have time they add stuff - especially if they have a different opinion from me. That way you get many points of view and one might fit your head-space better than another, etc.

mike11165 Wrote:

give me a good beginner book please for all around learning...

Unless you really need pages there's no better library of books and videos than the internet. Learn how to search for stuff. Just one search for DIY studio lighting gave me a few thousand links. I selected these for this example:
I guess there's about three or four 1000 page books there absorbed in the space of about 4 hours total if you watch and read everything. It took me 1 min to find them and cost me nothing. Plus I might even be able to make friends or business contacts out of them. All levels of learning are available.
when i tap a camera, what am i listening for?

The feeling that it may just break. Plastic trashy feeling. Squeezing it and twisting it slightly wrenched between your two hands will tell you the same thing. Give it a twist. Not too hard especially with the entry level Nikons and Canons - you don't wanna hafta buy it.
Also, what features do you consider most important for a growing amateur to have on a camera?

Hmm, for me in about this order, (to look for when shopping):
1. Sensor type (#1 CMOS, #2 NMOS, #9 CCD Needs reading tho as newer stuff may not follow the recent typically true, rules.)
2. Sensor size in inches or cm (tells crop factor and hints to general lens costs given a particular target spec)
3. Sensor density (tells resolving power within Sensor size group, chroma/luma fidelity, hints at noise characteristics)
4. Sensor noise characteristics. (usually a product of #1, #2, and #3 combined somehow. But it can also be any of several other factors likt the actual chip design or as Garbz pointed out once, the surrounding supporting components - their layout and quality.)
5. Good mid and high grade lenses are available that won't break your bank account. (related to 2 and 3)
6. General speed in AF, AF Tracking,
7. Image stabilization or anti-shake or whatever the manufacturer calls it, (for the general hobbyist this could just be the most important feature of all. I'm an oldster so it's #7 for me.) You want it in camera if possible and not in lens. The newer Sony's have the best anti-shake right now - by far actually. And I hate the Sony co. having done lots of business with them here in Japan.
8. Frame Rate & Buffer size. Frame rate by itself isn't all that it's cracked up to be. Anything over 3 is fast enough except maybe for some obscure special purpose. But the number of frames the buffer and off-loading (to memory card) system allow is pretty crucial. If it only allows 3 to 5 shots before you stop getting the 3FPS that kinda sucks. A general good spec is about 20 RAW frames at 3fps ~ 5fps.
9. Ergonomics and design layout (how easy or hard everything is to get to, set, or change) Includes programmable buttons and wheels, etc. Flip out LCD's = good, extra monochrome LCDs, good view finder - wide bright and undistorted, battery access while on tripod, flash height if there's a built-in flash, shoe and PC socket available and standard, supports faster UDMA memory cards,
10. Easy-life feature set. Like voice memo, built-in wireless flash available, wireless LAN or blue-tooth picture transfer, auto sensor cleaning - the best right now is the sonics systems, multiple memory card types supported, multiple memory cards working together, lap-top remote controllable, auto VF/LCD switching via face proximity, battery life and/or extended pack availability, grip sensor activations. These things together or in some combination can make the difference between having fun, liking photography and always wishing you had something different, or not being able to do what you want to do.
11. Build quality usually follows these features. The more you can check the "have box" the better build quality it usually is.
or better question.. what are the most difficult things that a professional controls themselves that an amateur should not attempt?

None of it is very difficult and an amateur should try everything. I think the key to having fun AND producing great images is having a good analytical mind 1st and then having the brass to try it out. Pretty simple really. But if I divide your question into "most difficult thing to control yourself" I guess it would be light and shadow control. It's not really difficult at all but it's not in the camera. it's panels, reflectors, light types and intensities, positions, gels, and having enough enthusiasm to actually get up and try something or test it just for the sake of learning.

Err, I'm sure I missed a buttload of stuff. Others will know more I hope.

K_Pugh · Aug 3, 2008

I've been into photography for 4 - 5 years now on and off. I recently bought a D80 with the battery grip (which i would recommend along with another battery). I've got to say the D80 is a capable camera and pretty well designed. The buttons are nicely placed and it's very easy, one-touch usually, to change settings that need changed quickly.

It has enough features to last a long time, that's if you even use most of them).. there's nothing more i could ask of it at the moment. Sure, the D200/D300 have more switches/buttons to change settings quicker, faster FPS, better build quality (not that the D80 is flimsy in any way)... as a beginner though i don't think you'll need more from the D80 for a good while yet, better off saving the cash and getting decent glass and more accessories (battery grip, battery, extra memory cards, case, filters etc)

just my opinion though.