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TamiAz

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Between an 18% grey card and a white balance card? I bought an 18% grey card awhile to help with white balance, but every time I used it my white balance was way too warm. I got frustrated and stopped using it. Well, I finally figured out that you can buy white balance grey cards. To me, wb cards are a lighter grey. Are they?

I brought out my grey card again yesterday and was playing around with it.. It works great for setting my exposure. I would take a picture without the grey card and then a picture using it. There was quite a difference in the exposure between the two pictures.

Thanks!!
 
The old (film era) grey cards could actually vary in color between manufacturers. This was fine since you weren't setting WB, but exposure, so the 18% (reflectance) came into play. If the standard "fluorescent, incandescent, etc." settings don't work, I'll try to get a mid-value grey that is somewhere in the photo, even if a shadow. For small things, like my pens, I have a grey mouse pad that seems to work.
 
Many sensors are calibrated to 12% gray not 18% gray. That could account for some of the variation. As to a white balance card. They can be white or combination cards. I have two. One foldable that is white on one side and 18% gray on the other for sporting events. My favorite white balance tool is the X-Rite Color Checker.
 
I've seen rolls of gaffing tape labeled "Photo Gray" and recall some gear bags have photo specific mid-grey panels or elements built in.
 
Best WB card:

wb.webp


Cut out a piece of white Styrofoam from a food tray or container. It's free and accurate. In fact if you need to buy a commercial one to impress clients that you're a pro, then go ahead and flash that around, but get the Styrofoam anyway and use it when they're not looking.

Joe
 
As mentioned, grey cards are really meant for exposure, and when used for WB correction, the degree of 'greyness' will affect the temperature of the WB. A proper white card is the best target, like Gryphonslair, I like the X-Rite passport, but there are a host of options including the Expos Disc, and in a pinch, I've used the back of a business card. Remember that all this is supposed to do is get you in the ballpark; you should really be tweaking to get the specific colour temperature.
 
The reason I like the X-Rite, is it is a multi tasker. I use it when profiling a printer as well since I also use the X-Rite Colormunki. Not as nice as the digital color checker from X-Rite, but does the job and I already own it.
 
Going along with the white for WB, Nikon instructions for setting custom WB reference (on the D40) is to shoot a neutral grey or white object.
 
Yep.
A gray card is for exposure, not white balance.

Yes, there is a difference in gray cards.
Not all gray cards are created equal, regardless the % gray.
Which is why I used a certified gray card.
Specifically I used a Whibal card, a X-RITE ColorChecker Passport, and X-RITE display, printer, projector, scanner calibration hardware/software.
WhiBal G7 White Balance Studio Card
X-Rite ColorChecker Passport (MSCCPP)
 
The idea for the 18% grey card arose in the days of B/W negative film because it was intended to represent 'middle grey' for a film..
It was assumed that the film had a useful range of about 5 stops, which was a sensible value, although films did vary somewhat. The required figure was a halfway point along the range and, because the relation between exposure and image density is not a linear (uniform) one, halfway works out at 18% approx. (not 50% as might be thought at first sight). Most modern digital cameras have a useful range of more than 5 stops, and their 'middle grey' is darker than the traditional one. As mentioned above, many modern sensors are calibrated to 12%, which represents the 'middle' of a 6 stop range. Even more sensitive sensors should really be calibrated to even lower values (e.g. 6% for an 8 stop range), although they may not be.
In brief: an 18% grey card isn't suitable for a modern digital camera.
GHK
 
Of course they don't. BUT the algorithms by which they produce an exposure reading are based on it!
 
The idea for the 18% grey card arose in the days of B/W negative film because it was intended to represent 'middle grey' for a film..

And it has caused us so much confusion since. :)

Actually, it was earlier.

It was believed that 18% was the gray tone level that the human eye recognizes as "middle gray", meaning we think it looks like around middle of the range (between black and white). The brain changes an amazing amount of things that we think we see. But the ink is 18%, not the middle of anything, and the response of the eye was a different subject.

Specifically, in older days (no automation, no electronics, no sensors, no nothing), the 18% gray card was used by ink press printers to judge their halftone ink flow (ink level adjusted so that a 18% halftone was judged to create this middle gray tone we think we see).

Then in the 1930s when Ansel Adams developed his popular Zone System, the card existed, and he declared the 18% card was Zone V, and middle gray again. The system and the card were widely used, and Ansel described details of the use of the card in his book "The Negative". One goal was Zone V will look about middle to our eye. It was less about exposure, but the actual key was his belief that photos should contain some actual black and some actual white, and Ansel's prints certainly do (contrast is extremely important to grayscale work, much less so for color, even a little detrimental for color).

However, Kodak always said if metering on their 18% card, we should increase exposure 1/2 stop to come out proper (which converts t0 12%). Ansel himself (same book) said 1/3 stop increase (meters of the day, metering on 18% cards).

Our meters today do 12.5%, but note that this is the judgment about the average mixed tone of typical scenes (if possible exists), and is NOT related to any value of middle gray. Nothing says the average scene is middle gray. However, the meters only goal is to place the scene average at the middle, hoping for greatest range either direction (which relates to that 1/2 stop boost).

Then decades later, digital came along. I doubt Ansel ever saw a histogram, it is a modern digital thing. Gray cards were a film thing, about "looking middle gray".

We do know that one stop underexposure is 50% level (the definition of one stop is a 2x change).

If we have some fully exposed object in a scene (I am trying to say meaning at 255 level of digital), we know that intentionally underexposing one stop puts it at 50%, or from 255 to be at 128 level. That is in linear data, at the digital sensor. However, all of our RGB pictures are gamma encoded, which boosts the data levels. Histograms show the gamma encoded data. We should expect to see gamma encoded data values in the histogram. The 128 linear level we call middle goes to about 187 in gamma. The digital camera is also making other tonal changes, white balance and color profile and contrast, etc, but when we intentionally underexpose 1 stop, we see 255 fall to about 3/4 scale, close around there, but probably not precisely 187 (73%). Certainly we do NOT see one stop down go to 50% (because gamma boosts its histogram value).

Anyway, 18% is 18% and is not 50%, and is not half of anything. However, gamma raises 18% to about 46% in our photo data, which is due only to gamma, it is NOT because it is half of anything. Yet we see that 46% is nearly 50%, so we imagine 18% must be middle of something, so we call it middle (however remember middle 50% at 128 went to 187). Likewise we know 128 is half of 255, so 128 must be middle of something. So therefore (?), 18% is 50%. :) The eye may imagine it "looks" 50%, but it measures 18%. But gamma makes it Not even look that way. We even hear people telling us to calibrate our meters so a 18% card is at histogram 128, which by coincidence is not far wrong, but they have no clue about what any of this means. We never really ever know what we even mean by "middle", and we make crazy assumptions.


Regarding white balance, 18% cards vary. Kodak sold that business and has not manufactured a gray card for 20 years (other companies bought right to use their name). Most cards are somewhat neutral (gray color that has equal RGB components). Gray colors often have pink or blue color casts, but if they look very gray, most cards are pretty close, but they do vary. They are only intended to reflect 18%. They have no specs about neutral color. And while they can work, they are pretty dark for white balance purposes. White balance cards are either white, or very light gray.

But white balance cards are available, with the goal to be neutral white or gray. It is not rocket science, it is just white without a color cast. I like the Porta Brace White Balance card, $5 at B&H. The WhiBal card is good too, using gray pigments which then has to be tested, but they claim to test each card, which costs more. I have two of each, and I use the Porta Brace.

Use of a good WB card is the plan, and a good plan, but actually, another skill we should learn is this: Many of our photo scenes already contain white objects (white paper or envelopes, signs, porcelain dishes, T-shirts, white collars, church steeples, picket fences, even the white polka dots in the kids pajamas). Many of these are intended to look white (not off-white), and they mostly work rather well too (maybe a few exceptions when we must Undo), but normally much better than if no other planning was done. See this: Easy White Balance Correction, fix with or without Raw
 
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The idea for the 18% grey card arose in the days of B/W negative film because it was intended to represent 'middle grey' for a film..
And it has caused us so much confusion since. :) Actually, it was earlier. It was believed that 18% was the gray tone level that the human eye recognizes as "middle gray", meaning we think it looks like around middle of the range. The brain changes an amazing amount of things that we think we see. But the ink is 18%, not the middle of anything, and the response of the eye was a different subject. Specifically, in older days (no automation, no electronics, no sensors, no nothing), the 18% gray card was used by ink press printers to judge their halftone ink flow (ink level adjusted so that a 18% halftone was judged to create this middle gray tone we think we see). Then in the 1930s when Ansel Adams developed his popular Zone System, the card existed, and he declared the 18% card was Zone V, and middle gray again. The system and the card were widely used, and Ansel described details of the use of the card in his book "The Negative". One goal was Zone V will look about middle to our eye. It was less about exposure, but the actual key was his belief that scenes should contain some actual black and some actual white (contrast is extremely important to grayscale work, much less so for color, even a little detrimental for color). However, Kodak always said if metering on their 18% card, we should increase exposure 1/2 stop to come out proper (which converts t0 12%). Ansel himself (same book) said 1/3 stop increase (meters of the day, metering on 18% cards). Our meters today do 12.5%, but note that this is the judgment about the average mixed tone of typical scenes (if possible exists), and is NOT related to any value of middle gray. Nothing says the average scene is middle gray. However, the meters only goal is to place its average at middle gray, hoping for greatest range (which is that 1/2 stop boost). Then decades later, digital came along. I doubt Ansel ever saw a histogram, it is a modern digital thing. Gray cards were a film thing, about "looking middle gray". We do know that one stop underexposure is 50% level (the definition of one stop is a 2x change). If we have some fully exposed object in a scene (I am trying to say meaning at 255 level of digital), we know that intentionally underexposing one stop puts it at 50%, or from 255 to be at 128 level. That is in linear data, at the digital sensor. However, all of our RGB pictures are gamma encoded, which boosts the data levels. Histograms show the gamma encoded data. We should expect to see gamma encoded data values in the histogram. The 128 linear level goes to about 187 in gamma. The digital camera is also making other tonal changes, white balance and color profile and contrast, etc, but when we intentionally underexpose 1 stop, we see 255 fall to about 3/4 scale, close around here, but probably not precisely 187. Certainly we do NOT see one stop down at 50% (due to gamma). Anyway, 18% is 18% and is not 50%, and is not half of anything. However, gamma raises 18% to about 46% in our photo data, which is due only to gamma, it is NOT because it is half of anything. Yet we imagine that 46% is nearly 50%, so we imagine 18% must be middle of something, so we call it middle (however remember middle 50% of 128 went to 187). Likewise we know 128 is half of 255, so 128 must be middle of something. So therefore (?), 18% is 50%. :) But gamma makes it Not even look that way. We even hear people telling us to calibrate our meters so a 18% card is at histogram 128, which by coincidence is not far wrong, but they have no clue about what any of this means. We never really ever know what we even mean by "middle", and we make crazy assumptions. Regarding white balance, 18% cards vary. Kodak sold that business and has not manufactured a gray card for 20 years (other companies bought right to use their name). Most cards are somewhat neutral (gray color that has equal RGB components), most are pretty close, but they vary. They are only intended to reflect 18%. They have no specs about neutral color. And they are pretty dark for white balance purposes. White balance cards are either white, or very light gray. But white balance cards are available, with the goal to be neutral white or gray. It is not rocket science, it is just white without a color cast. I like the Porta Brace White Balance card, $5 at B&H. The WhiBal card is good too, using gray pigments which then has to be tested, but they claim to test each card, which costs more. I have two of each, and I use the Porta Brace. Use of a good WB card is the plan, and a good plan, but actually, another skill we should learn is this: Many of our photo scenes already contain white objects (white paper or envelopes, porcelain dishes, T-shirts, white collars, church steeples, picket fences, even the white polka dots in the kids pajamas). Many of these are intended to look white (not off-white), and they mostly work rather well too (maybe a few exceptions when we Undo), but normally much better than if no other planning was done. See this: Easy White Balance Correction, fix with or without Raw
 
I agree wholeheartedly with this which goes much deeper than what I felt was appropriate for posting.
GHK
 
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