Large Format 4x5 Cameras?

[gryffinwings]

I know I might a little ridiculous about my questions, but I want be well informed before I decide on my next film camera I buy, at the moment, I have plenty of 35mm cameras and I do not need any more, except maybe more glass. Anyways I have been looking at large format cameras, and I am currently looking at the Grafax 4x5 cameras and I am contemplating acquiring one eventually when funds become available, maybe tax refund time or something. Thoughts on maybe a Speed Graphic or Crown Graphic? There is so much variety and many different features, I'm not really sure what I would get, personally, I would prefer to keep it simple.

Thoughts? Recommendations? What to look out for?

 

[compur]

The main difference between the Speed and Crown is that the Speed Graphics have a focal plane shutter which adds bulk and weight to the camera and is only needed when using a lens that doesn't have its own shutter. And, these shutters are usually not working very well these days so I would go for the Crown over a Speed Graphic.

Whichever one you get I would recommend getting one with the Graflok back which will easily allow you to use rollfilm or other types of backs besides the standard sheet film type. These are also younger and more likely to be in better condition overall.

The Super Graphics are the top of the line and feature a revolving back which is nice to have.

And, be careful you don't mistake a 3x4 model for a 4x5.

Graflex.Org: Speed Graphics, Large Format Photography, and More is a great reference for these cameras.

 

[ac12]

In 4x5 you have 3 major types of cameras;
press, field and monorail.
- Press = Speed Graphic and similar, can be shot handheld.
- Field = Similar to a press but with more control.
- Monorail = Has a rail under the camera that everything attaches to. Much more bulky than a field camera. You need a tripod to shoot a monorail. More of a studio camera than one you would take into the field. But if you want to do movements, you want a monorail.

Major consideration. HOW will you get the film processed? Will you send it out, or will you process yourself.
If you send it out for processing, how will you send it, in the film holder, or will you remove the film from the film holder and put it into a transport box. And where will you send it.
If you do it yourself, you need different gear than for roll film.

Are you going to contact print or enlarge?
Do you have a 4x5 enlarger?

For the Speed Graphic, expect to have to have the lens serviced (CLA). The lens and lube are so old that the shutter speeds may not be anywhere near what is marked on the shutter.

Bellows are fragile and over time may develop pin-holes in the folds and corners. This will require a repair or replacement of the bellows.

As I said in the other thread, you need to control your GAS.
Spread out the purchases.

 

[gryffinwings]

In 4x5 you have 3 major types of cameras;
press, field and monorail.
- Press = Speed Graphic and similar, can be shot handheld.
- Field = Similar to a press but with more control.
- Monorail = Has a rail under the camera that everything attaches to. Much more bulky than a field camera. You need a tripod to shoot a monorail. More of a studio camera than one you would take into the field. But if you want to do movements, you want a monorail.

Major consideration. HOW will you get the film processed? Will you send it out, or will you process yourself.
If you send it out for processing, how will you send it, in the film holder, or will you remove the film from the film holder and put it into a transport box. And where will you send it.
If you do it yourself, you need different gear than for roll film.

Are you going to contact print or enlarge?
Do you have a 4x5 enlarger?

For the Speed Graphic, expect to have to have the lens serviced (CLA). The lens and lube are so old that the shutter speeds may not be anywhere near what is marked on the shutter.

Bellows are fragile and over time may develop pin-holes in the folds and corners. This will require a repair or replacement of the bellows.

As I said in the other thread, you need to control your GAS.
Spread out the purchases.

Thanks for the info, as I stated in my other thread, my GAS is under control, my desire for more information, maybe not so much. I think if I got a large format, it would likely be a press camera so it's easier to transport. In regards to film developing, I will look into where I could get it developed and see what the cost look like, I was not aware of the potential issues with large format, I will keep that in mind. In regards to CLA, I would definitely be looking at getting that done, the other potential thing I could do is buy a body for cheaper and buy a more modern lens.

 

[ac12]

In 4x5 you have 3 major types of cameras;
press, field and monorail.
- Press = Speed Graphic and similar, can be shot handheld.
- Field = Similar to a press but with more control.
- Monorail = Has a rail under the camera that everything attaches to. Much more bulky than a field camera. You need a tripod to shoot a monorail. More of a studio camera than one you would take into the field. But if you want to do movements, you want a monorail.

Major consideration. HOW will you get the film processed? Will you send it out, or will you process yourself.
If you send it out for processing, how will you send it, in the film holder, or will you remove the film from the film holder and put it into a transport box. And where will you send it.
If you do it yourself, you need different gear than for roll film.

Are you going to contact print or enlarge?
Do you have a 4x5 enlarger?

For the Speed Graphic, expect to have to have the lens serviced (CLA). The lens and lube are so old that the shutter speeds may not be anywhere near what is marked on the shutter.

Bellows are fragile and over time may develop pin-holes in the folds and corners. This will require a repair or replacement of the bellows.

As I said in the other thread, you need to control your GAS.
Spread out the purchases.

Thanks for the info, as I stated in my other thread, my GAS is under control, my desire for more information, maybe not so much. I think if I got a large format, it would likely be a press camera so it's easier to transport. In regards to film developing, I will look into where I could get it developed and see what the cost look like, I was not aware of the potential issues with large format, I will keep that in mind. In regards to CLA, I would definitely be looking at getting that done, the other potential thing I could do is buy a body for cheaper and buy a more modern lens.

Info is good, and generally free, except for the time to gather it.

I suggest you write down and walk through the ENTIRE workflow on paper. Then look for places where you may run into trouble.
For me it was processing and printing.

• I DiY B&W processing and now have the tanks to process sheet film.
  
• Color processing has to be sent out. The two local shops that used to handle sending out sheet film have closed, so if I shoot color I have to figure out how to get it processed.
  
• B&W printing, I have the enlarger, but the darkroom is a long work in process.

It is not so easy to use a modern lens/shutter on a press camera.

• The size of the hole in the lensboard has to match the hole requirement for the lens/shutter. You either get a lens/shutter that matches the hole in the lensboard, or have the hole in the lensboard cut larger for the new lens/shutter.
  
• A press camera folds up, into a nice "relatively" easy to carry box. So the lens/shutter has to be small enough to also fold up with the camera. A modern lens/shutter (if too large) may not allow the camera to fold up. You have to do research here.
• The alternative is to remove the lensboard before you fold up the camera. But then you have to pack and carry the separate lensboard+lens/shutter. I do not remember how easy (or not) it is to remove the lensboard on a SG.

I have a monorail, so I am not as familiar with a press camera. The last time I used a SG, was 40+ years ago.

As for "Also focusing under a dark cloth isn't completely necessary from the videos I've been watching."
I don't know what videos you were watching, but I found it difficult to focus with sun light on the ground glass. Just as difficult as trying to use the back LCD screen on a digital camera in the bright sun. You may have to just try it.

 

[pendennis]

I've also gotten back into large format, and I own a Super Graphic, a Tower Press (Sears-badged Busch Pressman Model D), and a Cambo 45SC monorail. All have their assets and drawbacks. The press cameras are lighter, but with that comes less flexibility in camera movements. The press cameras "normal" lens is usually around 135mm, slightly wide from "normal" (150mm). From there you can add a long lens and wide angle. The older press lenses were coated, but not to the extent of the modern Japanese and German lenses.

The monorails have nearly infinite lens and back adjustments, and you can really exercise artistic control.

There's also the field camera, metal or wood, which allows more movement than the press cameras, but less than the monorails.

I also own a Graflok 6x7 back, and I use a Cambo 6x7 back that loads like a film holder, but allows for 6x7 images on 120 film.

A newer monorail will probably have good bellows, but the older Graphics and many older monorails may have pinholes in the bellows. The other consideration are the film holders. They, too, can develop leaks over time.

There are fewer technicians to CLA the older lenses and shutters, and you also have to be aware that these older lenses may have coating, fungus, and cloudiness issues, all unrepairable for the most part.

The other thing is a sturdy tripod. A tripod for a DX digital and short zoom, will not support a Cambo monorail with a 210mm f/5.6 when its windy. Good used tripods can be found, and a Bogen 3036 and heavy 3047 head can be found on places like eBay.

To load/unload film holders, you need a changing bag, or darkroom. You'll also want a loupe to magnify the ground glass image while focusing/setting apertures. A focusing cloth is also advisable, especially on a bright day.

Right now, there are a number of labs which still do E6 transparency processing (mostly mail order), and some local labs will still do C41 color and B&W negatives. That leaves printing or scanning. I scan all mine and edit them before printing.

The results can be stunning, and the sheer size of the files can be a load on your hard drive. The grain is debatable, since there's a body of photographers which use the film grain to their advantages.

There are other considerations, and if you search the web, you can find a few forums which specialize in large format photography. There are also a number of hard copy books which are extremely informative.

 

[Tim Tucker 2]

Before you leap in I'll add some more.

I didn't go for either of the Graflex cameras as they don't offer full movement, no front swing and no real forward tilt. You have to use the drop bed in conjunction with the back tilt and front rise. The front tilt is there to compensate for the drop bed when using wide angle lenses. Some of the later MPP cameras are better in this respect offering decent and complete movements.

I went straight for a Linhof Technica IV it offers enough movement for most shots you will ever want to take and is portable but heavy. I did have a Sinar F2 but it isn't a very practical field camera, the folding ones are better. But make sure that the camera is compatible with modern dark slides as not all the earlier models are standardised making it difficult to find replacements.

Look at the widest lens that's practical with these cameras though as the focal length is it's distance from the lens board. With the Linhof a 90mm is about the widest practical lens I can use with useful movements, (the Linhof has an adjustable back). Any shorter and the lens is too close to the film and the bellows too compressed to allow movements, it becomes a real pain even to reach the nobs.

The bellows will often need replacement but beware of the EBay sourced ones as they tend to be thicker and less durable. It's often worth replacing them with ones from a reputable supplier, many of the more popular field cameras will have direct replacements rather than a custom one.

Loading and unloading dark slides is no real problem with a light tight bag and a spare empty film box.

As for lenses I tend to favour more modern ones over the original, if you look at the LF forums you will find some fairly good recommendations for reasonably priced ones. I wouldn't worry too much about the absolute best (I don't) as it will be near impossible for you to realise their full resolution as a beginner and you won't notice. I use a fairly basic Calumet 150mm, an older Super Angulon 90mm, and a G-Claron 240 and they're pretty good. I've also got a Tessar from 1910 and had no real issue with the shutter calibration, I've always got a close enough exposure from it if I fire it a couple of times before making the actual exposure and avoid the fastest speeds.

P.S. Focussing, or evaluating, really requires a cloth, I just use a black fleece blanket. Actual focussing requires a 6x loupe and I recommend the proper focussing loupes rather than the slide viewing ones. And the really older cameras won't take kindly the more modern and heavy lenses.

 

[480sparky39 38]

As for tripods..... consider a geared head.

 

[gryffinwings]

Before you leap in I'll add some more.

I didn't go for either of the Graflex cameras as they don't offer full movement, no front swing and no real forward tilt. You have to use the drop bed in conjunction with the back tilt and front rise. The front tilt is there to compensate for the drop bed when using wide angle lenses. Some of the later MPP cameras are better in this respect offering decent and complete movements.

I went straight for a Linhof Technica IV it offers enough movement for most shots you will ever want to take and is portable but heavy. I did have a Sinar F2 but it isn't a very practical field camera, the folding ones are better. But make sure that the camera is compatible with modern dark slides as not all the earlier models are standardised making it difficult to find replacements.

Look at the widest lens that's practical with these cameras though as the focal length is it's distance from the lens board. With the Linhof a 90mm is about the widest practical lens I can use with useful movements, (the Linhof has an adjustable back). Any shorter and the lens is too close to the film and the bellows too compressed to allow movements, it becomes a real pain even to reach the nobs.

The bellows will often need replacement but beware of the EBay sourced ones as they tend to be thicker and less durable. It's often worth replacing them with ones from a reputable supplier, many of the more popular field cameras will have direct replacements rather than a custom one.

Loading and unloading dark slides is no real problem with a light tight bag and a spare empty film box.

As for lenses I tend to favour more modern ones over the original, if you look at the LF forums you will find some fairly good recommendations for reasonably priced ones. I wouldn't worry too much about the absolute best (I don't) as it will be near impossible for you to realise their full resolution as a beginner and you won't notice. I use a fairly basic Calumet 150mm, an older Super Angulon 90mm, and a G-Claron 240 and they're pretty good. I've also got a Tessar from 1910 and had no real issue with the shutter calibration, I've always got a close enough exposure from it if I fire it a couple of times before making the actual exposure and avoid the fastest speeds.

P.S. Focussing, or evaluating, really requires a cloth, I just use a black fleece blanket. Actual focussing requires a 6x loupe and I recommend the proper focussing loupes rather than the slide viewing ones. And the really older cameras won't take kindly the more modern and heavy lenses.

In regards to Graflex, I would likely try and find the newest one I can, there is a local shop that has a lot of older gear, so I could start there and see what they have.

What is an MPP camera? Micro Precision Products? Not sure what to look for with those cameras.

Thank you for the information and advice.

As for tripods..... consider a geared head.

I'll take that into consideration, those are quite pricey. Definitely seems like large format can get really expensive really quickly.

 

[Tim Tucker 2]

In regards to Graflex, I would likely try and find the newest one I can, there is a local shop that has a lot of older gear, so I could start there and see what they have.

What is an MPP camera? Micro Precision Products? Not sure what to look for with those cameras.

Graflex were primarily press cameras and designed to be used with the lens board parallel to the film plane and as such they can be awkward to use with limited movements. Because of this they were also generally designed to be used with the smaller and lighter lenses, they don't take too kindly to some of the bigger and heavier one that give a big enough projected image circle (coverage) to allow movements. The age of them will mean that generally the bellows will need replacing or have been replaced, the good quality ones will be remarkably thin.

They can be used hand held, and were designed to be, but in order for you to do this you will need the original lens matched to the rangefinder cam as it will be calibrated to this specific lens. @Braineack's post in the Articles of Interest shows the results of hand held shooting at an F1 event.

For tripods you just need something fairly hefty and stable, I just use a Velbon Sherpa and it works fine. You can buy *the best of the best* but remember that most of the images you see that were made with these cameras simply used *adequate*.

MPP are a British make and are probably a lot more common over here but are essentially a Linhof clone.

If you are thinking of utilising movements then I highly recommend that you get a camera that offers these as the Graflex will be limited and difficult to use in this way. I can't stress how awkward it is to try and use these cameras outside what they were designed to do, if you want movements then get one with movements. Others to consider are:

Wista 45

Toyo 45A

Linhof Technica IV or above

When buying as a beginner look for one with a standard lens because it will also have a lens board. A couple of dark slides will be useful. Kits like this often offer good value as you will need all of these things to start. Also make sure that pattern lens boards are readily available, many are.

My Linhof cost me £650 from a reputable dealer on EBay but came with the original lens, (a symmar convertible and a good 150mm lens worth keeping), matched to the rangefinder cam and an original lens board. There's a picture of it here:

Linhof Technika IV

The bellows had been replaced with a pattern copy which was poor and needed replacing again for a good set at £120. I bought a set of 5 dark slides for £45. I tank develop with a Mod54 tank and scan through an EPSON V800. It's a good set up and one that will last many years. My results can be seen on my Blog page, some articles reproduced here in the Articles of Interest.

 

[Designer]

Thanks for the info, as I stated in my other thread, my GAS is under control, my desire for more information, maybe not so much. I think if I got a large format, it would likely be a press camera so it's easier to transport. In regards to film developing, I will look into where I could get it developed and see what the cost look like, I was not aware of the potential issues with large format, I will keep that in mind. In regards to CLA, I would definitely be looking at getting that done, the other potential thing I could do is buy a body for cheaper and buy a more modern lens.

Back in the mesozoic era I had a Speed Graphic. I also had another old used lens for which I was planning to make a homemade lens board. Didn't end up doing any more with it.

The entire project was severely interrupted when we moved across the country, and I eventually sold the SG at a give-away price at my tag sale. Had a flash, 120 film back, several film holders, and a carrying case. I used 4x5 sheet B&W film, and developed it myself at home.

 

[Derrel]

I have a Linhof Color, a late 1950's-era monorail that is small enough to use as a sort of field camera. Its base monorail length is fairly short, and the rear standard has limited movements, not full, extreme movements. It's not the Color Kardan, but the Color. It's an alternative monorail that can, and did for me, fill the role of a field type 4x5, and yet offered enough front and rear standard movements for studio shooting.

My Speed Graphic is a 1938 baby model, which shoots 2.25x3.25 inch sheets, or allows me to use my 120 rollfilm holder on the back. Smaller and lighter than a 4x5, it has an accessory Kalart rangefinder for the lens I have.The focal plane shutter works great!

 

[480sparky39 38]

Have you considered a digital? .........

Who makes a 4x5 digital back?

 

[smoke665]

Interesting thread with a lot of information. I've been toying with acquiring a large format for B&W, ever since I came across some 620 negatives taken with an old Argus my parents had. I was fascinated by how good they were. As I'm in a rural area my plan was to develop the film then scan. Have you looked at 5x7 or even 8x10?

 

[Designer]

Have you considered a digital? .........

Who makes a 4x5 digital back?

Oh, right. Large format. I was thinking of medium format.