Lens Shopping is Frustrating!!!

[ANDS!]

It is completely remiss of you to suggest that she need not worry about finding an affordable alternative to having a back-up.

That's not what I said - at all.

That's all that's being said here and for some reason you're telling her to ignore the advice of countless pro's that have done of this years and to just wing it... everything will be fine because over on the Digital Wedding Forums there's gear for sale that's never been used.

Don't be freaking obtuse. Sh*t happens. Thats a statistical certainty. However, the degree of SH*T happening that people are suggesting "cures" for is ONE of the things I disagree with. Having backups to expensive gear, and then backups for those backups is basically trying to drive your statistical chance of error to "zero" - which is silly and counterproductive. Renting a lens and body is probably a better option than outright purchasing a second body. DWF.com was brought up becuase of the COUNTLESS unused "backup" bodies that have been sitting in PRO shooters inventory for years. That is called anecdotal evidence to point to the insanity of this arms race some of you seem to be in with Murphy's Law.

Nevermind the nonsense that was bandied about having a backup to cars and other ridiculousness. People wonder why some of these shooters are able to get away with charging an arm AND a leg.

What will you tell her should she come back here after listening to your advice and says "my camera stopped working because it was knocked to the floor by a guest and I missed half of the wedding"? Will you ignore her posts? Pretend you gave other advice?

I will say "Why the hell was your camera on a tripod. . .in the middle of a wedding. . .and not in your hands?"

 

[TamiyaGuy]

haven't seen one of these threads in a while...

mostly new players...

interesting...

Bhahahaaa, sorry, but that just made my day! Very well played .

Anyway, I'm in no position to talk about shooting weddings as much as OverRead or Dao, but I would really recommend asking your friend if you could ghost her. I mean, unless her husband is the "gets annoyed at the drop of a hat" type (no offence to him), then the worst that could happen is she refuses, and even then you're no worse off.

Give it a shot, you'll learn something, too . Best of luck, whatever you choose to do!

 

[inTempus]

Don't get so wound up buddy, we're just talking. No need to cuss and have veins pop out of your forehead.

If you agree she should find a cheap solution to a back-up, then I'll chalk this up to "we agree" and move on.

 

[amandagphoto]

Renting a lens and body is probably a better option than outright purchasing a second body. DWF.com was brought up becuase of the COUNTLESS unused "backup" bodies that have been sitting in PRO shooters inventory for years. That is called anecdotal evidence to point to the insanity of this arms race some of you seem to be in with Murphy's Law.

What will you tell her should she come back here after listening to your advice and says "my camera stopped working because it was knocked to the floor by a guest and I missed half of the wedding"? Will you ignore her posts? Pretend you gave other advice?

I will say "Why the hell was your camera on a tripod. . .in the middle of a wedding. . .and not in your hands?"

Ands, renting equipment is not cost efficient if you are shooting so many weddings you would have paid for the camera by the time you get to wedding number 10, you know? There are countless other things that could happen to your camera body besides it getting knocked off a tripod. I don't believe anyone said to have a backup for the backup. Just to have one backup is sufficient and it need not be the costliest one out there. I think your experience with a few gearheads who buy everything is causing you to incorrectly perceive the need to have a modest backup.

 

[ANDS!]

Ands, renting equipment is not cost efficient if you are shooting so many weddings you would have paid for the camera by the time you get to wedding number 10, you know? There are countless other things that could happen to your camera body besides it getting knocked off a tripod. I don't believe anyone said to have a backup for the backup. Just to have one backup is sufficient and it need not be the costliest one out there. I think your experience with a few gearheads who buy everything is causing you to incorrectly perceive the need to have a modest backup.

First, I was actually agreeing with another poster that for those who are CASH STRAPPED and unwilling to dump a bunch of cash just for the benefit of being considered a "pro" in yours and others eyes - renting a lens is a viable option IF they are that concerned with their equipment breaking (and not just one piece of equipment - but ALL their equipment since that seems to be a statistical possibility for some of you).

Second, I already conceded the UTILITY of having backups way back when in this thread. My original complaint was against those who ridiculously stated that the lack of multiple copies of very expensive tools renders a persons art and talent as amateur.

No need to cuss and have veins pop out of your forehead.

The "sh*ts" were nouns.

 

[manaheim]

Bhahahaaa, sorry, but that just made my day! Very well played .

*chuckle*

Glad someone enjoyed it.

 

[amandagphoto]

Ands, renting equipment is not cost efficient if you are shooting so many weddings you would have paid for the camera by the time you get to wedding number 10, you know? There are countless other things that could happen to your camera body besides it getting knocked off a tripod. I don't believe anyone said to have a backup for the backup. Just to have one backup is sufficient and it need not be the costliest one out there. I think your experience with a few gearheads who buy everything is causing you to incorrectly perceive the need to have a modest backup.

First, I was actually agreeing with another poster that for those who are CASH STRAPPED and unwilling to dump a bunch of cash just for the benefit of being considered a "pro" in yours and others eyes - renting a lens is a viable option IF they are that concerned with their equipment breaking (and not just one piece of equipment - but ALL their equipment since that seems to be a statistical possibility for some of you).

Second, I already conceded the UTILITY of having backups way back when in this thread. My original complaint was against those who ridiculously stated that the lack of multiple copies of very expensive tools renders a persons art and talent as amateur.

No need to cuss and have veins pop out of your forehead.

The "sh*ts" were nouns.

Hello again ANDS, I don't believe anyone here on this thread stated that you had to have expensive equipment to be a pro or to be a talented artist. Is this something you saw on another thread perhaps, and you assumed that's what we meant when we stated you need backup equipment to be reliable?
Just to clarify, having backup equipment doesn't in itself make you a pro. The definition of professional according to Merriam-Websters dictionary is to "conform to technical and ethical standards of a profession" and to "participate in a field of activity for gain or livelihood". It does not mean one is necesarily better than an amateur, it just means there is a "code of conduct" (also in the dict def) that is followed and the backups are a part of that, but there is certainly more. I hope this leaves you with a better taste in your mouth.

 

[manaheim]

^^^ oh *SWEET*.

Now the debate on what a Pro means gets inserted... RELEASE THE LIONS!!!!

Or were we already debating that one? I get so lost on these threads because I've seen so many variants. It's like a huge blur.

 

[itznfb]

lol. i am actually surprised to see this still going on...
i actually agree with ANDS! original post in that there is no NEED for backup equipment. he did in fact emphasize NEED and even say if you are really unsure then get a cheap bacup. sure, if you're a very well known wedding photographer making 6 figures then yea, you're going to have multiple bodies. i have in fact never heard of someone carrying backup lenses though. in the past year i've been to two $250,000+ weddings with multiple professional photographers (i was a guest not a photographer) and none of them carries extra lenses. i can't see the need. you're going to have a variation of lenses and focal lengths and IF something were to happen to one you'll have another to make due.

 

[ANDS!]

Hello again ANDS, I don't believe anyone here on this thread stated that you had to have expensive equipment to be a pro or to be a talented artist. Is this something you saw on another thread perhaps, and you assumed that's what we meant when we stated you need backup equipment to be reliable?

Good lord.

Being a professional wedding photographer myself, I understand the difference between an amateur photographer who shows up with one camera and a pro who has backup equipment in case something happens to the first. The bride and groom are trusting you to be prepared and are paying you not only for photos, but to be responsible and have a backup plan for if something goes wrong (and eventually it will with one thing or another.). This is not the kind of shoot that can be redone and any pro customer service oriented photographer will have their client's best interests at heart. I know a bride and groom will appreciate that their wedding is treated with respect and care.

Emphasis mine.

And now you're being willfully obtuse. The ENTIRE sentence was: "My original complaint was against those who ridiculously stated that the lack of multiple copies of very expensive tools renders a persons art and talent as amateur." What pro quality wedding lens ISNT expensive?

Just to clarify, having backup equipment doesn't in itself make you a pro

No, but according to your above comment, not having them automatically makes you amateur hour.

It does not mean one is necessarily better than an amateur, it just means there is a "code of conduct" (also in the dict def) that is followed and the backups are a part of that

Is there a "Pro Photographer Guideline" that I'm missing? Some union that has hashed out this standardized behavior?

 

[Dao]

How to create a thread that can generate 40 pages?

Put "Wedding" "Friends/Relatives" "How to" "Free" in the Title.


Of course, "Canon vs Nikon" can do that too....

 

[manaheim]

ooo... I'd have to award ANDS! the advantage after that last post.

 

[amandagphoto]

ooo... I'd have to award ANDS! the advantage after that last post.

What advantage? I don't see that. A bad attitude does not a good point make. He is actually not accurately arguing the point because he does not appear to understand my meaning. He is arguing against something that was not said by anyone here which is rather amusing.

ANDS, expense is all relative and there are various tools that work well at various prices. Heck, it sounds like you would say everything but the kit lens is too much money. Just depends on your definition of what works well and your def of what expensive is. I wouldn't think twice about buying a soda if I'm thirsty but someone else might say a buck is too much for 16 oz and they'll wait till later. To each their own in the way of what we choose to buy and how much it is!

By the way, who actually stated that "the lack of multiple copies of very expensive tools renders a persons art and talent as amateur." I couldn't find anyone saying that on here except for you..... It doesn't matter the cost, it matters if it does the job. I hope you wouldn't go so far as to say a point and shoot camera would work for a pro wedding photog. Seriously, the choice of equipment is important and what it does. Some of it happens to cost more. The reason why is not rocket science and I won't insult anyone's intelligence here explaining that.

It is a characteristic of a non professional (and is a poor decision from a professional standpoint) to not have backup equipment. Could you shoot and get paid w/out backups? Sure! Is that professional behavior? Absolutely not. I guess the issue here is the noun "professional" vs the adjective "professional".

And yes, there are plenty of unions for photographers that have generally agreed upon codes from a pro standpoint. Try PPA and the DWF forum.

I think I've made the point concisely and politely.

 

[itznfb]

By the way, who actually stated that "the lack of multiple copies of very expensive tools renders a persons art and talent as amateur." I couldn't find anyone saying that on here except for you.....

I understand the difference between an amateur photographer who shows up with one camera and a pro who has backup equipment

-----------

i'm just goint to throw jabs in here and there to keep this going

 

[ANDS!]

This is the part where we get into Stoopid Land and I have to parse statements:

"the lack of multiple copies of very expensive tools renders a persons art and talent as amateur."

You are - purposely I suspect - focusing on the adjective EXPENSIVE, when the crux of that statement is "multiple copies of. . .tools". You know this, and are trying to play games of semantics to make your point. Photography IS an expensive pursuit - a VERY expensive thing when we are talking about having more than one of our lenses and bodies. You can play Einstein and discuss the "relativity" of cost, but I doubt you'll find someone who would suggest that having two or more copies of a 24-70 F/2.8 Nikon isn't an expensive (even if "necessary") investment.

Heres where your "argument" goes off the rails:

It doesn't matter the cost, it matters if it does the job.

A single camera body and a few lenses, does the job. But hoohoo:

Some of it happens to cost more.

Cost more. . .you mean - one lens is MORE EXPENSIVE than the other? Well slap me upside the head and call me Chris Burke! So there you go, you recognize that these are expensive items and well hell by simple math "multiple copies of expensive items" is greater than "single copies of expensive items". And thus, because YOU said a pro needs multiple (read: greater financial investment) backups, my statement can be inferred.

So realistically you have done nothing but restate your original comment:

Being a professional wedding photographer myself, I understand the difference between an amateur photographer who shows up with one camera and a pro who has backup equipment in case something happens to the first.

Which is where this whole bidness started - you making some ridiculous statement to the quality of a "professional" - adjective or otherwise.