Maybe I DONT need a full frame??

[Derrel]

AF points is the new ISO battle, which came after the MP battle.

Yes, that's an accurate statement, based on the way both Canon and Nikon are trying to transition many people into higher-profit margin full-frame cameras. It also is sort of indicative of the two manufacturers each taking different approaches.

Canon was first with an 'economy" FF, the 5D classic, with the diamond-shaped, 9-point AF array borrowed right out of the Canon 30D. I bought a 5D classic when it was current, back in 2006. On center point AF, with the 70-200/2.8 L=IS USM it focused pretty well; with the 24-105 f/4 L IS USM, it was very weak, probably due to the low magnification AND the slow max aperture of the lens. On the 5D-II, Canon added 9 "invisible" AF assist points, still within the tight,tight diamond shape, and they added VIDEO. ANd so was born yet another $3,499 Canon FF.

In 2007, Nikon came out with the D3, and then the D700. The D700 was a "pro-type" body with the same 51-point, 3-D color-aware, distance aware ambient and flash metering. The cameras were HUGE successes for Nikon, and Canon took a lot of flack for basically, selling a $389, stripped down, no-flash EOS ELAN body camera at $3,000+ price points. SO...the 5D Mark III was spawned, to take on the Nikon D3s, D700, and D4. By the time Canon got the 5D-III to market, it was up against the D800, which had more MP and was priced about $704 lower than the Canon.

The EOS 6D is back to the same 5D concept...a simpler, less-sophisticated FF body, but with a good sensor, and good video, and designed to go head to head with Nikon's entry-level FF, the D600, and now the D610. The 6D is the 5D Classic, updated.

What **I** think you need to do is to buy two VERY good lenses, one of them being a 70-200mm f/4, the other being an f/2.8 standard zoom. These will be lenses to be used for the next ten years.

 

[Josh66]

What **I** think you need to do is to buy two VERY good lenses, one of them being a 70-200mm f/4, the other being an f/2.8 standard zoom. These will be lenses to be used for the next ten years.

I sort of do miss my 70-200... I let someone "borrow" it, 2 years ago... The only zoom lens I really liked.

 

[JustJazzie]

Yes, that's an accurate statement, based on the way both Canon and Nikon are trying to transition many people into higher-profit margin full-frame cameras. It also is sort of indicative of the two manufacturers each taking different approaches. Canon was first with an 'economy" FF, the 5D classic, with the diamond-shaped, 9-point AF array borrowed right out of the Canon 30D. I bought a 5D classic when it was current, back in 2006. On center point AF, with the 70-200/2.8 L=IS USM it focused pretty well; with the 24-105 f/4 L IS USM, it was very weak, probably due to the low magnification AND the slow max aperture of the lens. On the 5D-II, Canon added 9 "invisible" AF assist points, still within the tight,tight diamond shape, and they added VIDEO. ANd so was born yet another $3,499 Canon FF. In 2007, Nikon came out with the D3, and then the D700. The D700 was a "pro-type" body with the same 51-point, 3-D color-aware, distance aware ambient and flash metering. The cameras were HUGE successes for Nikon, and Canon took a lot of flack for basically, selling a $389, stripped down, no-flash EOS ELAN body camera at $3,000+ price points. SO...the 5D Mark III was spawned, to take on the Nikon D3s, D700, and D4. By the time Canon got the 5D-III to market, it was up against the D800, which had more MP and was priced about $704 lower than the Canon. The EOS 6D is back to the same 5D concept...a simpler, less-sophisticated FF body, but with a good sensor, and good video, and designed to go head to head with Nikon's entry-level FF, the D600, and now the D610. The 6D is the 5D Classic, updated. What **I** think you need to do is to buy two VERY good lenses, one of them being a 70-200mm f/4, the other being an f/2.8 standard zoom. These will be lenses to be used for the next ten years.

Hahaha! I KNOW I need lens's regardless of the body, but it's the body giving me a headache right now. I'm so sad that my nex won't work for everything. I'm practically in tears at the thought of spending money on a brick I'm only going to use for "serious" work. I LOVE my nex, I love my endless focus points that zoom to 100% and has focus peaking to help me nail it (I have terrible eye sight even with glasses) And I love that it's so light. I love the resolution. I love the colors. Why oh why can't it just focus in the dark?!?! :cry:

 

[Josh66]

Why oh why can't it just focus in the dark?!?! :cry:

Says everyone.

 

[apaflo]

I am really having trouble gauging my need for low light photos. Honestly, I *think* I am okay with snapshots around the house of the kids at night. [...]

Then again, I'm probably okay with sports snap shots too.

If photographing children is the most significant use for the camera, think about good low light performance, fast autofocus and higher dynamic range because those are essential. That is true when they are rug rats running around the house, and twice as true when they go off to school and half your snaps will be made in some horribly illuminated auditorium or gymnasium.

What you would most want to have is a full frame DSLR, primarily due to low light, high ISO, and larger dynamic range. The advantage of FF for wide angle is more significant for that purpose than is the disadvantage of longer reach.

There is no competition either: A Nikon D610, or a used Nikon D800 if you can afford the best.

If you are also thinking about wildlife, such as bird photography, then perhaps a cropped sensor is a better choice. It is not as good for low light, but that compromise allows much lower cost lenses for long reach.

And again, for what you need there is no competition: A Nikon D7100.

Canon's low end and mid range cameras don't match Nikon. At the high end things (D4 vs 1DX) get close. And if video is significant Canon is far ahead. For shooting children with a mid-range camera, Nikon is the best choice. Better low light performance, better dynamic range, and better autofocus.

As for which camera "feels" better... in 6 months of use you will get used to the feel of almost any decent camera. What counts is the pictures you hang on the wall.

 

[Derrel]

I LOVE my nex, I love my endless focus points that zoom to 100% and has focus peaking to help me nail it (I have terrible eye sight even with glasses) And I love that it's so light. I love the resolution. I love the colors. Why oh why can't it just focus in the dark?!?! :cry:

Do you have the modeling lamps set to ON during shoots? And what lens is having focusing issues? Is it a slowish 'consumer-speed' lens? I'm missing something about the overall picture here. And, that is one of the reasons I am suggesting a pair of TOP-quality zooms, so that whatever camera you use will have ample light collection to help focusing.

 

[JustJazzie]

Do you have the modeling lamps set to ON during shoots? And what lens is having focusing issues? Is it a slowish 'consumer-speed' lens? I'm missing something about the overall picture here. And, that is one of the reasons I am suggesting a pair of TOP-quality zooms, so that whatever camera you use will have ample light collection to help focusing.

The problem is when I have the settings set to flash (ISO 100, 1/160, f4) the cameras evf shows what is on the sensor which is BLACK. Nothing. Until the strobes go off and then I have a perfectly exposed but oof shot. Let's not even mention the fact that I can't compose the shot because my screen is black.

To expose the modeling lamps even with room lights turned on, my camera I need at least ISO 3200, f1,8 1/60 and then my strobes go off and the entire frame is blown.

 

[EIngerson]

Hmmm, odd. You should be able to light the room better so you can focus. Your image will still have the same exposure when your strobes go off.

 

[vipgraphx]

So wanting and needing are two different things. I need a camera I want a camera, I need a full frame I want a full frame.

Regardless of hobby or pro there is going to be cost in both. I use race RC cars as a hobby and dumped butt loads of money in that money pit..My kids are into many things as a "hobby" Skate boarding, Racing Bikes, Scooters, Freestyle Bikes and I have three boys. I dump a lot of money into their happiness. SOme of their bikes are almost $1000 each not to mention their race gear.

My Daughter has been playing soccer since she was 3 and now 16. She plays competitive as do my boys and play all year round. We have dumped butt loads of money in soccer, with tournaments, equipment, do you know there are cleats that cost $300 these days. Once again to make her happy and hopefully get into college.


The reason I say this is because just to live costs money, Life costs money, hobbies cost money and we are here on this earth for a short period of time. Whether you are doing this as a hobby with the intentions to maybe as a job, its worth the investment to have the tools you need to do it better and faster. You don't want to show up to a shoot with an NEX 7 and think that that person will not think you are just joking..please no foul intention with what I just said I am just saying, Folks are use to seeing big cameras connected to the pro photographer . If you want to shoot glamour shots then get the equipment you need even if its a hobby. It makes your life easier and in return you don't have to spray and pray on that trigger.

The reason to buy full frame is for the low light and if thats what you are doing then go for it and don't look back. On the other hand the what really is the BIG different between the two? These days the crop sensor cameras are very very good. he D7100 is excellent but, so was the D7000 and the D90. All get the job done!

I have test the NEX 6, A7. D7100 and now D610 and honestly they have all performed for me despite what people say. People read things and then post them like they actually know. Until you have actually test drove those cameras you can't say for sure. Since I have test drove those I can give you honest and accurate info those three. Sorry I don't shoot canon other wise I would have offered info on that line up.

I know for me FF is where I want to be because I have that pesky little voice in my head saying go FF again..forget Crop..GO FF. here is the reason I like full frame is that I am on the opposite side of the pros for DX. Here is why. I shoot Lots of HDR landscape and interiors I want as wide as I can and thats where FF comes in handy I don't need the crop factor from the DX to get distance to.If I did I would go Crop since it extends the range with same glass but, I don't shoot sports anymore because I missed to many moments trying to get a good picture just to be disappointed and missed the real thing of watching my kids play the game. That you can not replace those times and moments. So I will just record those games with the video camera here and there.

I really hope you get what you want and if waiting is what you want than great, but how many shots will you NOT get if you wait. Its all in the lenses anyways bodies change and if you go with Nikon or Canon you should be good to use your glass on future models unlike Sony.

 

[robbins.photo]

Do you have the modeling lamps set to ON during shoots? And what lens is having focusing issues? Is it a slowish 'consumer-speed' lens? I'm missing something about the overall picture here. And, that is one of the reasons I am suggesting a pair of TOP-quality zooms, so that whatever camera you use will have ample light collection to help focusing.

The problem is when I have the settings set to flash (ISO 100, 1/160, f4) the cameras evf shows what is on the sensor which is BLACK. Nothing. Until the strobes go off and then I have a perfectly exposed but oof shot. Let's not even mention the fact that I can't compose the shot because my screen is black.

To expose the modeling lamps even with room lights turned on, my camera I need at least ISO 3200, f1,8 1/60 and then my strobes go off and the entire frame is blown.

So really it isn't lowlight performance that's an issue here, it's the EVF - which unfortunately is one of the drawbacks to EVF. So I'd probably recommend you seriously consider the D7100, honestly from everything you've said so far I think that will give you the capabilities you want.

 

[Derrel]

So really it isn't lowlight performance that's an issue here, it's the EVF - which unfortunately is one of the drawbacks to EVF. So I'd probably recommend you seriously consider the D7100, honestly from everything you've said so far I think that will give you the capabilities you want.

Yeah...this thread pretty much goes through the EVF problems for shooting in anything other than "good light".

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3377461#forum-post-50778344

 

[JustJazzie]

Yeah...this thread pretty much goes through the EVF problems for shooting in anything other than "good light". http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3377461#forum-post-50778344

Derral you just Might be my hero!!! I read that thread and it mentioned a live view setting, I had mine turned on! I'll have to try it with my flashes tomorrow, but testing with my OCF was promising! i swear I've read my manual a million time but I never remember it all. THANK YOU TIMES A MILLION! I will update tomorrow when I can pull my strobes back out.

Now if I can only convince my dh that the solution is the a7. ;-)

 

[hamlet]

Besides the extra price, i only see upsides to full frame cameras.

 

[vipgraphx]

Yeah...this thread pretty much goes through the EVF problems for shooting in anything other than "good light". Sony NEX-6 electronic viewfinder in low light.: Sony Alpha/NEX E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Derral you just Might be my hero!!! I read that thread and it mentioned a live view setting, I had mine turned on! I'll have to try it with my flashes tomorrow, but testing with my OCF was promising! i swear I've read my manual a million time but I never remember it all. THANK YOU TIMES A MILLION! I will update tomorrow when I can pull my strobes back out.

Now if I can only convince my dh that the solution is the a7. ;-)

Have you considered the A77 or A99? I got a chance to play with an A77 and although they are not the newest cameras out WOW pretty amazing camera. Has probably all the features of the NEX 7 plus more I could only imagine the A99 I think it has a few more options. I really liked the A77 speed and if you want speed for your kids sports this is the camera for it very very fast. MAkes me want one just for that!

I am not sure how they do in low light for what you need but maybe an A77 user can chime in. Wait I recall there was a guy who has the A77 and just got an D610 because the A77 was not suitable for his needs in low light….correct me if I wrong on this…its been an ongoing thread as well.

 

[Gavjenks]

I'm concerned with the focusing on the 6d for shooting my kids as they grow into sports.

This seems like a very minor difference to justify double the cost. Especially if it isn't going to matter for years by which time you might be interested in another camera anyway.

I'd say get a 6D if you can afford it and want a full frame, the 5DIII is for most people probably trivially different (and it's actually worse in some respects that might matter to you in general, namely low light). The 6D is pretty much just as good for anything other than hardcore quick motion sports, and costs dramatically less.

If you can't realllly afford/truly justify that either, then just get a good crop frame, and you'll do just fine with it too.