New look

[Designer]

The longer we go without a deal, the higher my price becomes.

Tick tick tick tick....

 

[runnah]

You look like Red Foreman in that pic.

 

[Buckster]

The preference for the "red" interface is simply between it and this new one, not one of all three including the vBulletin one before it. Give the members the option of choosing the vBulletin as well, and see what happens.

You don't understand...

Actually, I do.

vBulletin is a forum software - the software TPF used before they installed the new software, XenForo. Two different companies, two different products. You will not be able to have a selection/choice to use vBulletin or XenForo on TPF because there can only be one forum software. This site uses XF.

You missed the point. The statement was made that the members complained about XF, but now we prefer it. My point was that, no, the members ACTUALLY prefer vB, but it's not one of the current two choices. We only prefer the XF to the new one, which we see as even worse than the XF, which we see as worse than the vB.

Will the "red" remain an option to the users going forward? Their wording indicates that it's only "in the meantime" until they work out the bugs.

Not every business decision is a home run. They seem to be listening to the most reasoned voices and trying to make the changes users will like.

That doesn't answer the question in any way. If you're not going to answer it, why'd quote it?

Their direct answer to "why" the change wasn't "just tried to come up with something more fresh". It was to appease Google.

Like all business decisions, there is more than one answer. You got one and now you are making like it is the one and only reason. Maybe it is what you WANT to believe so it can justify your rants and distaste of the new theme design.

The answer that the tech gave was Google, NOT "just tried to come up with something more fresh". If it was "just tried to come up with something more fresh", they could have said so.

The "just tried to come up with something more fresh" EXCUSE was given by a site admin who wasn't even being consulted or informed by the company who owns the place and the techs making the changes. It was pulled out of the butt as a knee-jerk excuse to put me in my place because I dared to point out the business reality of it; A business reality they agreed with me on, btw. If not for the need to deal with Google for the ads that bring in the money, there would have been no such change.

You're right, the owners aren't obligated to inform anyone here of anything, and they don't. In fact, there seems to be no interaction with them at all, even with you daily site mods and admins.

You would have no direct knowledge of that, now would you? No private business that I am aware of allows its customers to attend company meetings. This forum, like most, probably has a private, staff only forum where they discuss the administration of this site. The owners may be participating there without you knowing about it.

I can put two and two together after being here for several years and paying attention, and especially when they don't deny it. You're just reaching now.

It's a lot like they don't really care about the site itself or photography as a subject, as long as lots of people keep clicking to refresh all the pages with ads on them, which you've now basically confirmed when you agreed with me that it IS just a way to make money to them.

I don't believe in mind readers. You prob'ly ain't one. You don't know the owner's motivations any more than I do,

There's no mystery here, Scooby Doo. I said the motivation is business - making money, and the site admin agreed in their reply. No mind reading involved.

but at least I have 20 some odd years of forum/message board administration under my belt.

And I have over 10. But that's not the important part; It's what you say next that REALLY is going to drive my point home (and thank you in advance):

One of the forums I admin is a hunting forum. I don't hunt. I don't participate on that forum. I have an admin on my own forum that doesn't participate - he's the owner of the hunting forum and has agreed to take over my flooring forum when I die (advanced lung disease - it's inevitable)... He has no experience or interest in flooring (except those in his own home), but he is a very wise businessman. He will keep my vision alive and make money at it.

Thank you for confirming my contentions.

Don't get me wrong; I don't begrudge them that, and I'm not "demonizing" them or the techs making the changes.

Oh, yes you do... yes you are. Read your own posts.

No, I'm really not. I'm simply acknowledging the reality of the situation, which keeps getting confirmed in the replies, btw.

If you think that the members here citing the problems they see with the changes is "demonizing", then I think you should probably work on your customer service savvy.

 

[Buckster]

The new look really doesn't bother me as everything essentially works the same, and I suspect most of us will get used to it or switch back to the red skin. But I'd like to add one more vote for the darker background, please! Or at least, if possible, those thicker message separators.

Woo-Hoo! I can already visualize the cash payments as the whiz-bang website designers all jump on the bandwagon and start paying me for my brilliant suggestion.

Actually, I suggested it years ago, but it went into the black hole called the "Feedback and Suggestions" forum.

 

[Battou]

It switched while I was searching, took me until this morning to realize it was not my computer being stupid.

 

[Overread]

Well if nothing else it seems to have drawn Battou out of a 5 year or so hibernation! Welcome back

 

[terri]

The "just tried to come up with something more fresh" EXCUSE was given by a site admin who wasn't even being consulted or informed by the company who owns the place and the techs making the changes. It was pulled out of the butt as a knee-jerk excuse to put me in my place because I dared to point out the business reality of it; A business reality they agreed with me on, btw. If not for the need to deal with Google for the ads that bring in the money, there would have been no such change.

Now, now. You're starting to tread out of line, and to what end? Why enter this thread with your dukes up? I do know what I'm talking about and I also know the major force driving the new skin was to smooth things out with Google. And again - why not? From its inception back in 2003, a lot of time and effort were put towards SEO - why should it be different now? To point it out as if it's something other than a smart business decision comes off as a disingenuous way to attack the owners. There was, in fact, much gnashing of teeth over the look and feel of the skin of XF when we changed, and if there is more than one reason to incentivize the owners to put together some new skins, then let's welcome the progress. It's hardly the first instance of a business dragging its feet before having compelling reasons to get onto a project that's been sidelined, and demonizing a financial incentive is naive.

At the end of the day, we finally have some choices, and now that they're out here and can be tinkered with in real time, based on member feedback, they will only improve. At no point did I say that getting member feedback on how the new skin was working for them, or issues that they've noticed, was demonizing anything. Do not twist my words. What we are after is real-time feedback on how the skin is working, how it affects certain devices, etc. Once this is addressed, the techs can move a lot faster for any further skin designs.

 

[Buckster]

Buck as for the suggestion section most of the suggestions we get are for new sub-sections. We try to resist that because we don't want 100001 subsections spreading out the sites load too much - a site like that with a population of our size can very quickly distil activity to a point where the site appears near dead.

I fully understand that, but it's only part of the story here.

I've seen many, many other kinds of suggestions than "make a new forum area", and they almost always get summarily shot down as a matter of course as well.

From watching it and being a site admin on other forums for over 10 years, I've always suspected that it's because you local site admins and mods have no actual ability to implement them. From my experience, you have very little site control beyond setting up new forum areas or removing them, word filters, member disciplines, etc., and the owners aren't actually available to you to be consulted for the changes that would be beyond your local abilities, let alone to make the decisions and then implement the changes.

So the alternative is to make excuses for why it's a bad idea and won't be implemented. It's the same kind of situation I and the other admins and mods at the sites I worked as an admin had to deal with, so I understand if that's what's going on in the background.

For the record, I always disagreed with making up BS excuses, rather than just say the owners have no interest in implementing such changes, but was out-voted. The thinking was that it shows we're not actually running the place, and that would somehow be bad for some reason I couldn't fathom.

 

[runnah]

Something like this would be awesome.

Black Responsive | XenForo Community

 

[terri]

Well if nothing else it seems to have drawn Battou out of a 5 year or so hibernation! Welcome back

Good grief,has it really been that long? Welcome back to the thrills and (occasional spills) of TPF, Battou!

 

[Overread]

Buck - many of the ideas get shot down because typically they are ideas aired before and we've already an established reason (often as not members either agree with or only one or two disagree with the mod reasoning).

Also don't forget Terri is admin not just moderator so she has got access to the background if and when needed. The admin are generally very open to new ideas - they very much do the background running and leave mods to do the general day to day as well as to pitch ideas to them.

What is needed is not just a good idea but a good argument and reasoning. Where we can see (or be made to see) clear advantages long term for the site we can put forward ideas. They might not happen overnight but the admin are generally not resistive to them at all. (they well understand that a forum will only generate income if its active and that a site is only active if its membership is provided for).

 

[terri]

From watching it and being a site admin on other forums for over 10 years, I've always suspected that it's because you local site admins and mods have no actual ability to implement them. From my experience, you have very little site control beyond setting up new forum areas or removing them, word filters, member disciplines, etc., and the owners aren't actually available to you to be consulted for the changes that would be beyond your local abilities, let alone to make the decisions and then implement the changes.

So the alternative is to make excuses for why it's a bad idea and won't be implemented. It's the same kind of situation I and the other admins and mods at the sites I worked as an admin had to deal with, so I understand if that's what's going on in the background.

You're assuming a lot. And you're wrong. The owners have always been responsive to us, and we enjoy a good professional relationship with mutual respect.

Members keep hearing the same response about keeping the number of forums down because we want to keep the number of forums down. Overread already made detailed, factual response on this subject. Please show him the respect of taking him at his word.

Your only purpose for posting in this thread seems to be to argue with the staff as well as your fellow members.

 

[Buckster]

The "just tried to come up with something more fresh" EXCUSE was given by a site admin who wasn't even being consulted or informed by the company who owns the place and the techs making the changes. It was pulled out of the butt as a knee-jerk excuse to put me in my place because I dared to point out the business reality of it; A business reality they agreed with me on, btw. If not for the need to deal with Google for the ads that bring in the money, there would have been no such change.

Now, now. You're starting to tread out of line, and to what end? Why enter this thread with your dukes up? I do know what I'm talking about and I also know the major force driving the new skin was to smooth things out with Google. And again - why not? From its inception back in 2003, a lot of time and effort were put towards SEO - why should it be different now? To point it out as if it's something other than a smart business decision comes off as a disingenuous way to attack the owners. There was, in fact, much gnashing of teeth over the look and feel of the skin of XF when we changed, and if there is more than one reason to incentivize the owners to put together some new skins, then let's welcome the progress. It's hardly the first instance of a business dragging its feet before having compelling reasons to get onto a project that's been sidelined, and demonizing a financial incentive is naive.

At the end of the day, we finally have some choices, and now that they're out here and can be tinkered with in real time, based on member feedback, they will only improve. At no point did I say that getting member feedback on how the new skin was working for them, or issues that they've noticed, was demonizing anything. Do not twist my words. What we are after is real-time feedback on how the skin is working, how it affects certain devices, etc. Once this is addressed, the techs can move a lot faster for any further skin designs.

I didn't enter with my dukes up. I entered with a reply to Jim's post that implied this was being done for us, when in reality I see no indication that the owners know or care anything at all about us, other than that we are a source of revenue through our clicks.

Bad me for getting out of line! BAD, BAD ME!!!

Get back in line and shut up! Now! Or else! Right?

 

[terri]

You're continuing to argue points that are trying to be explained, as fully and honestly as we can. So yes, you are starting to make yourself look bad. You're full of assumptions and are making declarations and simply playing point/counterpoint. Again, to what end? This isn't helping the techs make the new skin work better for any of us.

 

[runnah]

I'll take all complaints to the folks who run the site.

Here is me meeting with them last month.