not a good happening....

[PNA]

I have read you reply several time and as to the issue of someone leaving, I can understand your position, however, it is because of the critiquing issues all of this has arisen. Had the stamp issue been address in a timely manner perhaps comprise and moderation could have occurred and a valued member would not have been lost.

Is there a time element to your decision to moderate the use/arrest of the stamp? Is this not your forum to make decisions without others input or advice. Who are you going to offend by making a decision now to remove the use of the stamp and have the tone of the critique forum moderated (softened).

Question: my subscription donation goes to whom, where and why? Is there not a monetary reward to you? I gladly payed you my share when asked, before the changes came into effect.

Talk to me Chase......let's get some things on the table.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

Ok, to put at least a temporary end to the stamp discussion....


....as we said in many other threads: your complaints have been heard. We are not ignoring you.

No one said that nothing was going to change. It is a very busy time for several people on the mod team right now, so change cannot always come overnight.

Please be patient.

To be Devil's advocate, the 'change' has already happened. The Crit Forum has become what it is now. The effects of that change are causing the present unhappiness with a section of the membership. All that has to be done by the Mods is to suspend any further activity in the Crit Forum until such time as they can work out what to do. That can be done now.
Suspending the Crit Forum will not bring the world to an end. I am sure most people on the Board would understand why it has been done and as posting (and critique) could be carried on in the other sections just like it is now there would be no disruption.
As such an action would show the members who are upset by the current situation that the Management is taking positive steps to resolve the issue, there would be no further cause for complaint by anyone.
Leaving things as they are and telling people to be patient will just keep the whole thing on the boil.

Personally, I can't see why there is all this fuss. I posted elsewhere about previous changes to the Crit, the problems we had and how unpleasant it was to be a Mod in there. It's in the feedback section.
I think everyone should just sit back and and try and see the other side's point of view.

And leaving doesn't solve anything. Believe me, I know

 

[newrmdmike]

leaving solves something if you find something better . . .

lots of people have left lately, they haven't all said cya for good, but there are reasons they aren't here. thephotoforum doesn't cator to every single aspect of photography as well as it cators to some of them. it can't, so if a photographer grows to a certain point in a certain direction this forum may be outgrown in terms of the feedback you can expect from other users.

while we are being asked to wait i understand pna perfectly. he paid for a subscription to this site, and he is asking for change, but has not heard back from anyone anything but wait and see. maybe you'll like the change. the problem with this is that its been done before and proved unsuccessful . . . so either its being discussed in the back rooms where the people complaining can't really offer feedback or its not being discussed yet. BUT as far as i can see nothing has been done yet, or is even in the works.

it would be nice to hear what all is goin on

 

[Chase]

Right now, I'm not really sure what is going on, and as you have probably seen, there haven't been a whole lot of stamps lately. So, I'm heavily debating which way I want to go, including Hertz's suggestion of closing the crit forum, either temporarily or permanently.

As far as donations and subscriptions, a fair portion goes to general costs associated with running the site (server costs, software costs, money for prizes, etc.). The rest is currently sitting in a pay pal account and generally gets used for more site related items....such as the camera straps we've had printed, the mag lights, etc.

I also agree with Hertz that I'm confused about the amount of problems people have had with the crit area (although a good number of people are using it in its current form). As vocal as some of you are about wanting it changed, others are equally vocal about wanting it to stay the same, so I don't believe there is such a cut and dry "right" way of doing things. One of the biggest challenges we run across is that the more "friendly" we make it, the more it becomes a HUGE ordeal to moderate it. Stamps were a concept to ease moderation and get consistency, without the intention of being perceived the way many have perceived them. That being the case, a friendlier approach would likely require a much more personalized message, which in turn requires much more time to craft and creates a much bigger burden on those who offer to assist in their free time. That is why finding a balance has proven time and time again to be a nightmare, and why I had heavily considered closing that section before a group of members came along and tried to improve it. It is also sad to me that, even though some people didn't like the approach, I wish at least some credit had been given for this group of people to try for an improvement. I can understand not being happy with it, but these people donated their time to try to make something better and were just about torn apart for it. More constructive criticism would have been appreciated.

 

[newrmdmike]

i think the critique section crud has really settled down, and its working fine for me . . . some comments still aren't substantive, but there are more quality comments than before.

chase, i like what you said. I AM PRETTY HAPPY WITH THE CRITIQUE SECTION NOW. and i see the need for more moderation than its getting, but also see how much of a problem further moderation would cause given the problems we have already had. i think the new guidelines are an improvement . . . the initial moderation was the only thing i had a bump with, and honestly i wouldn't have a problem with the stamps now that i really understand what is wanted from the initial group of moderators and the guidelines. i think we are close to a real, final improvement.

i haven't seen any more problems in the critique section . . . so why did mystery leave?

 

[Chris of Arabia]

Something to do with posts being deleted according to PNA, but no idea exactly what went or why.

 

[Chase]

I believe the final decision was tied to a thread with a new member regarding photography as art, which ended up going way off topic and getting somewhat inflammatory. A rather heated exchange began and the posts involved were removed. I believe this situation contributed to the final decision, but that is mostly assumptions on my part.

 

[newrmdmike]

oooooooohhhh . . . people saying mean stuff and mod deleted posts or user deleted posts?

if your being a total ace and inappropriate i have no problem with someone deleting the post . . . but i never read that thread while it was going.

 

[Chase]

They were deleted by a moderator and all parties involved were asked to refrain from such posts.

 

[PNA]

And this specific party continues to be absuive....

"

Apparently a few posts were deleted last night so, I'd just like to say; asterix, asterix, asterix, asterix, off.


Did that offend anyone?

What has the world come to?

This qoute is from the thread where this individual has repetedly usee an offensive phrase. His statements were directed to MS and me and the posts were deleted.

It seems he's still at it......now I'm wondering why the poster has not been banned yet. If it take a subscriber/member to voice a complaint, consider it so stated!

 

[PNA]

Rather than quote you statement above, I shall merely reference it.



The fact that you, as the owner, do not know what's going on is disturbing. I've been in business for over 45 years and had control of employees and issues at all times.

Thank you for the explanation of the donations.....that's never been an issue with me just wanted to know.

The facts surounding changes of the critique forum are just a little skewed.....you made the changes as you saw fit. Now I have been requesting that you only modify those changes. Up to this point in time you have not responded to my requests, which you continue to evade. You have yet responded directly to me regarding the issues I have presented. When you want me to leave......ban me! Ignoring me it's going to work.

Regarding the folks involved, it's my understanding some folks were shut out during the final decision making. And they happen to be against the use of the stamp. True??? Which means to me that there was dissension among the group. Did you investigate this......?

One more time I will stated my objections and respectfully ask that you: 1) Discontinue the use of the stamp. If a moderator has the time to "stamp" someone, they have the time to offer an explanation with reference to the guidelines: 2) Re-evaluate the word "final", in the context of the digital photographic world, there's no photo that will be final. People want suggestions offerered and then be able present the changes back to the forum for further discussion.

My suggestion are not unreasonable, please review and modify the guidelines and rein in the moderator's use of the stamp.

As a last suggestion, why not consult a broader range of subscriber/members (that's one word).

 

[Corry]

I honestly can't figure out why you are still maintaining that you are being ignored?

And I honestly cannot see why you are still stomping your feet and banging your fists and screaming so loudly when we've already asked you to please be patient.

First of all, this is a casual internet forum....it's not some wallstreet fortune 500 business. None of us are paid to be here. We are here because we enjoy it here, and it's a pasttime.

Secondly, it's already been stated that many of us on the mod team are in very busy points in our lives right now, so things can't necessarily be done instantly. The development of the crit forum in it's current state took two months. It certainly did not happen overnight. I know at this current time, as he has already mentioned, Chase's job takes him all over the country...and besides the job he has an 11 month old and a wife that needs his attention during the times he is home. Do you expect him to choose your rantings about a stamp (a VERY miniscule part of ONE section on a HUGE forum) to turn all of his attentions on over his wife and son?

I work three jobs at the moment...I have time to flitter about here and there during my day job, but I do not have time to block out an hour or three to focus on a project right now.

I know at least three others on the mod team are in very busy points in their lives, as well.

Again, this has all been stated before. We've asked you to be patient, but you continue to throw this fit. Why? I don't understand it at all. You continue to scream that you are being ignored. How can you say that given all the replies you've gotten? How can you say that when we've told you flat out that no one said nothing was changing, and to be patient?

And seriously, how are you justifying this huge, week long drawn out tantrum to yourself? This is simply a laid back, easy going forum. We tried something new in an attempt to make one tiny section of the forum more of a learning tool to those that want it (all other sections have remained untouched and are exactly the same as before), but have made no announcements that we are perfect and that there is no room for improvement. In fact, we've done quite the opposite. Chase has announced many times that he is totally open to suggestion from the general public. So why you insist on doing so in such a childish fashion is beyond me.

I don't know if you've been on any other forums before, but very few are as laid back as this one is. On the other forums I am on, you would not have been allowed to yell and scream for as loud and as long as you have. Your posts would have been removed and you likely would have been banned, as publicly calling out mods and mod decisions is against the rules. Because of this, I also can't see why you keep complaining about how horribly strict and heavy handed we are here. Compared to most other forums, we are quite the opposite. No, we don't allow personal attacks, and we aren't going to start allowing it, either. Removing taunting or antagonizing remarks is not heavy handed or out of line. If an offending post such as this remains, it is almost definitely because a moderator has not seen it. Expecting a moderator to catch every comment is totally ridiculous. That is why we have a report button. It's most certainly not just for spam.

 

[Chase]

Rather than quote you statement above, I shall merely reference it.

The fact that you, as the owner, do not know what's going on is disturbing. I've been in business for over 45 years and had control of employees and issues at all times.

PNA, unfortunately this is not my full time job and it cannot be, so making a comparison to such doesn't relate in this case. As stated earlier, if I were to make a living off of this site, much greater expectations would be fair, but this is a hobby, not a business. I maintain the site in my free time and have a great set of people who help me with this endeavor, but none of us can dedicate time to this site to the same level we would our careers.

If you were specifically referring to me not knowing what is going on based on why MS left, that is true, I do not. All I can do is take my best guess unless told otherwise.

Thank you for the explanation of the donations.....that's never been an issue with me just wanted to know.

I'm more than happy to be clear on these things. In all fairness, the amount of money I "pocket" from the site is roughly equal (on average) to 3-4 hours of work at my "real" job per month. I cover costs and make a few extra bucks, but the majority of the money circles back into the site.

The facts surounding changes of the critique forum are just a little skewed.....you made the changes as you saw fit. Now I have been requesting that you only modify those changes. Up to this point in time you have not responded to my requests, which you continue to evade. You have yet responded directly to me regarding the issues I have presented. When you want me to leave......ban me! Ignoring me it's going to work.

This is partially correct. The small committee of members made all of the changes and I approved a version that seemed reasonable to me. Your requests have been to remove the stamps and I've been fair in my responses that I have not come to a decision on how things are going to change. With the number of responses you've received from me, I don't believe you've been ignored. You haven't got the answer(s) you've been looking for, but have absolutely not been ignored.

Regarding the folks involved, it's my understanding some folks were shut out during the final decision making. And they happen to be against the use of the stamp. True??? Which means to me that there was dissension among the group. Did you investigate this......?

That is true that people were cut out in the end, and that was largely due to people not getting along with each other. The people who were cut out were actually part of the process of creating the stamps to begin with, but were largely unhappy with the final wording, not against the stamps themselves (for those involved, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong here).

One more time I will stated my objections and respectfully ask that you: 1) Discontinue the use of the stamp. If a moderator has the time to "stamp" someone, they have the time to offer an explanation with reference to the guidelines: 2) Re-evaluate the word "final", in the context of the digital photographic world, there's no photo that will be final. People want suggestions offerered and then be able present the changes back to the forum for further discussion.

My suggestion are not unreasonable, please review and modify the guidelines and rein in the moderator's use of the stamp.

Once again, with all due respect, you are basically telling us to do things the way you want them. I understand your reasoning, and that this means a lot to you, but that is no guarantee that changes will be made or how they will be made. You may have noticed a lack of stamps lately, assuming you are still viewing the critique area. As I stated before, I am still in the process of deciding how I want to move forward, and in the meantime there has been almost no moderation in there at all, so I'm sort of confused by your constant reference to stamps when i don't believe one has been used in at least the last few days. Again, if I'm wrong there, please show me otherwise.

When all is said and done, I'm sure you want to know if there will still be stamps and my answer to you now is "I don't know". Moderation takes more time than most people realize and having a more automated approach makes it much easier to handle, so there is a good chance that some "form" of a stamp will continue to be used. It may not be graphical in nature, it may simply be some pre-formatted text statements, but more than likely some form of "canned" response will be at least partially used.

As a last suggestion, why not consult a broader range of subscriber/members (that's one word).

[/quote]

That is exactly what the feedback section and threads like this are all about. Many people have had a voice in this and no one has been stopped from speaking their mind on this topic. And, while I sincerely appreciate you having contributed to the site by becoming a subscriber, I don't want the average member to feel like they have to contribute money to the site in order to have a "stronger" voice in what happens here.

 

[The_Traveler]

That is true that people were cut out in the end, and that was largely due to people not getting along with each other. The people who were cut out were actually part of the process of creating the stamps to begin with, but were largely unhappy with the final wording, not against the stamps themselves (for those involved, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong here).

Sorry, Chase, you are wrong here. I suggested some sort of standard text as a stamp to make it easy and then suggested a revision to Motcon's original text. I was absolutely against the stamps as Motcon designed them. I thought they were disrespectful and condescending. I suggested some more light-hearted a stamp but I was immediately told off by one of the mods (either Terri or Corry - since the thread was disappeared, I can't check.)

As I remember Corry chimed in, said we needed to be strict and took Motcon's side and then Motcon put up a poll to approve the stamps and wording as he wrote them.

Digital Matt and MaxBloom, although they didn't like the way things were going, voted yes to get the process over with (this was actually stated in separate responses by both of them).

It was no surprise to me that I was 'excluded' because I refused to go along with a bad decision that was made by Motcon with Corry's support.

The resistance to the Critique has not been to the requirements but the condescending manner in which the Forum has been moderated.

It would have cleared the air immediately if, after the fuss arose, if Corry and Motcon had acted like adults, taken responsibility and said, "Yes, we made this decision to have these stamps- and it seems to have been wrong and we're going to figure out a way to make it better."

This is a no brainer, When you step on someone's toe, you say 'excuse me , I'm sorry' and change your behavior.

This could have been all resolved in a day and the Critique Forum could have gone on just fine. Instead there seems to be some huge process to make a decision about what to do - which I don't understand.

 

[Corry]

Uh....I see my name a lot in your post, Lew, and I don't know why. I wasn't involved one iota in the stamp making process.